James Stone - NCGASA (Nor Cal Guides and Sportsmens Association Director

Hot podcasting from Chico California.

This is the Bartlett fly fishing podcast.

Where we discuss North health fly Fishing, guiding fisheries signs and management,

conservation and more.

No better, fish better. Here's your host, Hogan Brown.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back.

It has been a bit.

So,

hopefully, you're all caught up on bat back episodes of the Barb podcast

with the serious delay of. New episodes, but,

You know, it kinda I took a break. Life gets busy. I got a a fourteen year old and the twelve year old that play,

beckett at place

club soccer,

and he's twelve. My oldest oliver over her fourteen plays lacrosse, and

those two things.

I guess youth sports like, doesn't have seasons anymore. It just has, like,

I don't know. Multiple seasons,

non ending,

always traveling, always playing.

We did get a few, you know, couple breaks over the,

I guess that'd be Thanksgiving and Christmas, but, you know, that's when we do indoor training, and I don't know, weight lifting. I I built a gym. Last since I built, I purchased and assembled

a a gym that now is takes up half of my garage because my kids are lifting weights and

apparently,

motivated by sports. I don't think they're quite lifting weights for girls yet, but I'm sure that's coming. So

I'm committed to doing some episodes. I got a few

record another one day. I got the one you're gonna hear today with James Stone.

But you know, the podcast is kinda something that is probably gonna come and go just based on the fact that

my free time to sit down and record a podcast

really comes and goes.

Between all my work and the fly fishing industry and my kids and

the sem of having

or wanting to have some free time and such. So

hopefully enjoy this one with James, James is the director of the Northern California Guides and Sports men's Association, and and he's been on the podcast before ate a really great one

with Nick and Chad. I think a few years ago that, you know, if you wanna...

Prep for this one do a little research,

he can go back and listen to that one.

I know that one one when I listened to that one, that was the first time I had heard James talk and really,

kinda motivated me personally to become involved in the

organization. I think I joined after that and kinda really started paying attention at the time Darren Deal,

Captain Darren Deal was a

past guest as well, captain Deal,

was involved in it and kinda

pushed me

to get more involved in it. And,

you know, like any

conservation or

you know,

organization that

dab and politics, you're gonna have people, probably listeners that

agree, disagree,

love, hate, whatever it is, you know, politics can

create a,

fairly

imp response and a lot of people, especially when it comes to the environment and Fisheries management. But

one thing that I always struck me about James was as he really, and he does in this podcast. Really try to kinda

work

within the system, try to, you know, do good

where good can be done and realize that, you know,

there's certain things in California that we're just not gonna fix like agriculture is a really important part of California. You know, the dams are here to stay.

Hatch trees are here in a really important part of the system. So

Those are just kinda realities of being in California, and, you know, the sooner, we,

I guess, kinda come to grips with those, the sooner we can actually, you know, do something.

The other thing I really like about James is I don't really know anyone that is out there working

like James works. And let's be real. I don't know a ton of people.

That work in the conservation world. I I mean, I I do know a few, but

man, the guy is,

he's on multiple committees. He's a encyclopedia

of

of knowledge

and

kinda one of those guys that has a

engine

that functions at a little higher Rpm than most, and you can just hear when he talks.

So

that's our guess for this episode. You know, other things, man. I mean, we've been having a great winner you know,

we haven't had rain or at least, you know, big storms here. So

for the last couple... I don't know, a couple weeks maybe, so, like, rivers are in shape, you know, every time I looked to the north south

well, not the south, but the northeast or west. There's snow in the foot hills.

And that's definitely one thing that we talk about with James is kind of the the water

situation, and it it looks good for California, you know, the rivers are flush.

Everything's kinda coming into shape.

I've been fishing a bit, been getting the boys out a bunch when they don't have sports. So

been on like Or, and I like Or has been tough. I'm not gonna lie. It's

you know, it came up

so fast

with all the water and I think that's kinda thrown the fish for a loop, but

this last weekend, they had the team wild west

bass tournament out there. So there was a hundred and twelve boats

out there in that. And previous guest in friend of the program,

Cal bass union member and just great dude, Ryan Williams,

and his boat mate bo tremble fishing only fly rods. No gear rods in the boat, just fishing fly rods actually came in twenty six in that tournament. So

coming in twenty six out of a hundred and twelve gear anglers is

an incredibly impressive feet

with a boat full of fly rods, especially how the lake has been fishing

for the fly rod lately. So,

I'm gonna get out today. Gonna record a podcast.

And then get out on the river today with Captain Ben Thompson and good friend of ours new member of the Cal bashing Union

and see if we can chase up a winner stripe, but that's that's blocking along rivers coming into shape in certain areas. So

pretty busy winter, good winner. It actually

feels

like we had a winner. You know, it

sun's been out. Days are getting longer kinda here at the first part of February. It it starts to, you know, midday when it hits those sixties. You kinda feel that spring vibe, you can, you know, wear a short sleeve shirt and

in previous years, I felt very guilty for enjoying that because of the fact that

we had not had much of a winner, but this year, it it it I can enjoy spring with

I guess, relative comfort knowing that there's a bunch of snow up in the mountains and we had some rain. So...

Alright. Without further a ado,

enjoy James, and we talk a bunch about water and salmon, basically.

And

you know, those are two incredibly important things the state of California. And while Salmon may not be the

realistically the,

I guess, the the trophy

fly rod species in California. We kinda think of salmon is the world of gear fishermen, but it is this... It is the fish that's gonna get our fisheries managed properly, You know,

and really

it is the one that moves the needle. And somewhat of a canary in the coal mine. You know, if the salmon are doing well, the steel head and the trout are doing well, and, you, the stripe are doing well and everything else is doing well.

So

Hope you enjoy it, and we'll have some more for you coming soon and take care and hope everyone's well.

Hey, let's everybody I'd like to welcome James Stone to the podcast,

and

James Von tell us a little bit about yourself. You you are a return guest, but not my return guest So... Well, thank you very much, Hogan. Yeah. I'm excited to be here today, and

what a wonderful day it is here in Northern California. I've been going up and down the Sacramento River and feather River the last few days and analyzing all the stuff that's going on I'm really excited to be here. I'm the executive director of Nor cal guides in Sports

Association and the president of the board, And I sit on a few committees throughout California. I said on the California Advisory committee for Salmon Steel head Trout. K. And I also said on the Salmon advisory sub panel for the Pacific Fisheries Management council

and we're responsible for setting the salmon seasons every year in California.

Gotcha. Gotcha. So you're like the Jimmy Hof of Northern California Fishing and Yeah. Sometimes it feels that I can't. Yeah. Absolutely. It's it's it's it's become a job he'll say that. It used to be fun when I just got off the river and do all these calls, but it has turned into a job and travel. I'm going to multiple states. And man. Multiple locations just to make sure that we are

advocating for the Nor state and protecting our species and our ability to fish for our kids and grandkids.

Yeah. It's it's funny. I... I've

I think for the longest time, I've got it for quite a while now, but I kinda operated with the Ignorance Bliss

philosophy. And then I think I heard you actually interviewed on this podcast, Nick and Chad interviewed you.

And right around that same time, there was

an issue with striped bass. And

I felt obligated to, like, learn more and get involved, you know? And it it was, like, there was no going back at that point. Like, I had seen the wizard. And

That's it. Yeah. You know. And I I I imagine you have seen the wizard in many different ways. So I have. And

the more you become engaged

and the more you want to educate yourself on these fisheries issues,

it's amazing on how far down the hole you can go and and learn and

how much is really involved in all of the variables that are involved in fisheries management. Yeah. And and especially in a state, like, ours were

everything is

so intertwined. You know, it's not a state where it's just a river runs into a lake and that's kinda it. Like, we have oceans and delta, and,

I mean, I would never pretend to be an expert on any of it because it's like, that old... I think it's old Greek analogy, the more you know the less you know. You know, I feel like that. So... Sometimes I wish I can do that. So maybe we could trade for a guy. Oh, man. So you you you've been in California been going up and down.

What is it... What was your assessment? What does it look like?

Well, we're very fortunate to finally have some water. Yeah. That's been great. So, you know, this is one thing you always, you know, like, one winter doesn't make up for

bad winters, but

can't can it? I mean, are we

are we in good shape.

I would say we are in a lot better shape than we were. So three years of drought really put us in a real bad predicament. But Yeah. I think if we're gonna, you know, talk real quick about water, the most important thing that we need to analyze is that the amount of water that we even have in storage

was designed in nineteen thirty seven for s dam in nineteen fifties and sixties for the other dams.

And so we were based that on a population maximum of about twenty million people.

Unfortunately, we're at forty one million people today. You know, I never even thought of that, but that's such an aha moment of, like, these reservoirs were built

fifty, sixty, seventy years ago. Yeah. Wow. That's... So we have a

issue when it comes to just the simple

supply and demand. Yeah. And the demand is there for water. People need clean one running water in their homes. They need water for their children to drink. They need water to

clean their dishes, run their dishwasher,

flush their toilets and all of that. That's first and foremost is the human

species and the Californian that are Yeah. You know, designed to get that. But, you know, second, we've gotta then go to the species and the fish and animals that yeah required to have this type of water And,

unfortunately, we haven't put them second.

No. No.

So

so, yeah, that's that's a real... That's a real mind twister for me because of that... That... That's such a simple analysis of the situation of that

the water storage was predicated on a much smaller population than we have now. So it's, like, does the system even function

properly anymore. I mean, it it... It's... That's a tough one. And then I assume, and I'm speaking from just

observation, but agriculture is

along with the population.

Yeah. That's a great point, and that's gonna be your number one fact

of why

we are in the shape that we're in now.

And this doesn't have anything to do with northern California farming,

north of the delta because historical acres looking back over the last fifty, sixty years are generally about the same. There's Okay. Crop changes from rice to, you know, row crops into trees. Yeah. So there's differences

when it comes to

the amount of crops and the farmers that are farming up north. But

for the most part, the farmers that are north of the delta are small farmers are family run multiple

generations Yeah. That are

farming for

themselves and to feed Californian

like I. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. So their intent, I would say is

for the good of all Californian And for the good of they enjoy what they do to you know, help feed people. Yeah. They're

they are designed to do that. But Yeah unfortunately,

south of the delta, we have a completely different situation, and it is can continually expanding and continually

growing

outside

of that supply and demand conversation that we are discussing.

And we are sending the majority of our water to these corporate

agricultural

developments that are big sick buying desert land

and then putting crops and

fertilizer

and nutrients into soil that have never historically been farmed.

And then those corporate groups

are not mom and pop farmers

that are trying to feed locals in California.

These are large massive

corporations that are run by huge board of directors. Yeah. That have one goal.

Profit. Yeah. That's it. And so that profit is then, do we sell the food here in America?

Or do we ship it out of the country? Yeah. And what we're finding and what we've seen for the past twenty years is that the amount of crops that are exported out of the country. Yeah. Far super seed the amount of crops south of the delta that are staying within America. Gotcha. And that's all on the backs. Of the water that's needed for our fish. Yeah.

Now are those... You know, I guess, I it devil's advocate hit. Are those farms...

Are they... I assume they're economically important to the region with which they're in

you know, but how much of that money stays,

you know, I don't

by a matter of principal I don't go south of sacramento very often.

It just... If I have do I get on a plane in fly straight la or San diego. You. Right. But

it doesn't seem like those are vibrant

communities

south of say Sacramento and Stockton. Yeah. One could argue that, you know, farms provide jobs for, you know, a certain amount of people in those in those geographic. Areas. So, you know, you could argue that, you know, there is some type of you know, advantage to having more jobs in communities and everything like that. But there's also the argument that there are other jobs that are still available in those communities that those people could be filling if

they weren't out, you know, growing

certain crops in certain areas that never have historically Gotcha. Existed.

Still Gotcha. But I would say that, you know, the majority of our water are going to these corporate

agricultural farms, For example,

there's a life insurance company

that is east of Modest

that has thousands and thousands of acres.

Mh. And

now they're over tens of thousands of acres over the last twenty years. Yeah. And they have put crops

into this area and now

are... Financing the backside of the life insurance company

to pay out

based on the water that they receive for these products and crops that they are profiting,

millions of dollars on. And so

we have to, you know, one understand that, you know, business is, you know, good for people, and we we wanna keep, you know, that idea that, you know, if you'd like to start a business or like to start farm, you know, that's. That's all great. But

we have to also

understand that we are at that tipping point to where we do not have the supply. Mh.

That that

to fill the demand south of the delta. Got it. We we have the supply... The the reservoir, let's go back to the reservoir stores.

We have the supply for three years out of S Or.

That's how the state water project and the Cv,

the Central Valley

Improvement Act in nineteen ninety two at of S

was formed was

fourth

four point five million acre feet of water at S. Mh. Three point five million acre feet out of Or totaling eight million acre feet,

and that was designed to last three full years in case of drought. Gotcha.

But again, that was based on A different population. That's correct.

Sixty percent less

population

and eighty percent less corporate

agriculture south of the delta. Gotcha. So now that those two numbers have gone up, now your demand is so high, and now you have people screaming. Hey. I've got a business. I need water. I have a home. I need water,

And so now you have

a

bipartisan

issue

that

politicians are on both sides,

po

and advocating and lobbying for water.

Like how are we gonna get more water. That's all people want. Is more and more and more and more and more water. And I could tell you even if S and Or

were

fifteen million acre feet. Yeah. It seems that They're just gonna want more water. Yeah. Is it the kind of thing where, you know, say we raise, you know, I don't know much about it, but say you raise the dams. Like, I can't imagine that solves the problem. It's not going to. Yeah. And that's what I tell people is that they're, like, yeah, Let's raise s at eleven to six team feet,

and we'll get another one point five million acre feet of water in there. Well, the problem is is that the demand right now is is advocating for more than that. Yeah. So, you know, right now, the big the big project is sites reservoir. Which is gonna be west of Maxwell and Williams, California.

It's gonna be a little over a million acre feet. The voters voted that in in two thousand fourteen.

Here we are nine years later and not one rock has been moved. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And

you know, what will that do? And so there's a lot of people on both sides, you know, against and four sides.

And but when you look at the dynamic of that whole project, they're gonna start breaking ground in twenty twenty five, and they said that that project will be completed and fully operational by twenty thirty.

Wow. For a million acre feet of water that will

not benefit salmon,

it won't benefit any species of fish because the water is going to be removed from the system

up in Anderson and Chico areas where we are today, and it will go out through the canal to the west in the wet winter years and fill that reservoir.

And then when they are in dry years or drought years, then they will take water from sites through the cal drain, and it will come out at night landing.

Right there at the ramp where you launch a knights landing. It comes out where the drain comes back in.

So one of the arguments is is now you're gonna have super hot water

coming out and turning it into a boiling pot of water

south of knights landing. How is that going to benefit any type of sell on it? Yeah. So that's a big question. Right? That's an odd... That's an odd

solution for the fish. Right You? I mean, I I understand

I guess I always understood sites reservoirs is

there...

I guess the issue I understood or how Understood is they're gonna pump water out in the winter when the flows are high

before it gets to the delta. And the idea was, like,

you know, we're gonna save that for dry years for Northern California.

Right?

But then, like, I... My thought was, like, well,

like, how does that...

What does that do? So that means the sal and the Delta still becomes an issue because you're not pushing fresh water out where pumping... You know, it's like one solution creates another problem

creates another, you know what I mean? Yeah That's exactly right. Yeah. The number last time I looked at it was right around thirteen thousand five hundred to fourteen thousand Cf. Yeah. So anytime it's over that, then they can divert water over the top of that, but we have to at least leave

about thirteen five, fourteen thousand Cf

flowing to push that sal serenity out, which is real good, but as a lot of people know.

Sometimes our river can get raging thirty four a thousand. So... Yeah. You know, in times like that, I don't think a little you know, diversion is going to matter at thirty forty thousand. No. That's if anything it'll help flood protection. You know. It that that actually is very true. And and that would be a good time to capture some of that water and and get it. But where a lot of environmental

and anglers

and

conservation are concerned is when we are right at that threshold of, you know, that level that yeah. Fifteen thousand.

If we're taking, you know, if it's fifteen thousand, and we're taking two thousand out,

you know, is that going to affect? And the only way to model that is do it? Yeah. And find out. Yeah. And so I think that's where there's been a lot of controversy

oversight. I think that the average voter of California voted it in because

people say, the the ballot said, do you support sites reservoir for more water storage? I mean, you could write a ballot question that you can't say no to with that. Right? Sure.

Everybody would be like, well, of course, we need water. This is California.

Yeah. Right. We need water. Yeah.

But the reality is

is that we have to really understand these projects

and really understand that, you know, we do need more water. We do need more storage in certain areas.

Geographically

because the North state is supporting a

population that far out super seeds

the North state. Yeah. We are supporting forty one million people on the backs of three reservoirs. That's insane. It is. Yeah. And I don't think

that the

politicians

are in the right frame of mind

to support

our environment. Yeah. They are about who gave me political money Yeah. For my campaign to help me get raised. Yeah. And I scratch their back by getting them water. Yeah. And so that's the truth of what's going on on all sides. And so

You know, as Grandpa said, whiskey for drinking and waters for Fighting. Yeah. And that's where we're at still, and I think California will always be at this stage. Yeah. Because we just went through

a terrible three year situation with the water for our fish and for our communities in the state. Yeah. And so I think that we are gonna see

continuous problems.

And I think that there will be some benefits to,

you know, pulling water into sites, and I think that there's gonna be some issues with pulling water sites.

But we've gotta remember that when we put S or and fu some dam and the barriers in the Hub

and, you know, Ing b and bull bar. Yeah. On the Hub.

We systematically changed these systems. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, being a resident downstream of the dam, being a resident that had to be evacuated

six years ago. Yeah. What in two more days. Yeah. Is when Or busted. Right? Yeah. So

six years ago when a hundred and eighty thousand people got evacuated and my family being in one of them.

We understand that living downstream of the dam. We're on those dams. From protecting our families, our communities and our businesses and everything else. But at the same time, we have to be cognizant of,

understanding that wildlife was here before us. Yeah. And the fish were here before us. Yeah. And that we must protect that so that our kids and grandkids have the opportunity to one see Salmon but too angle for Salmon. Yeah. And have that opportunity to nourish their bodies with Salmon. Yeah.

And bringing up Salmon. It's funny. You know, I think most people listen to my podcast podcasts or fly Fishermen and probably by

just reality, most of them don't even fish for salmon. But,

like, Salmon is the

kind of the canary in the coal mine for fly fisherman, I think Yes. Like, you know,

there's no egg bite on the... On the feather or the Sack or the you, if you don't have Salmon. You know what I mean? And

fly fishermen kinda pay attention to Salmon, but they don't pay attention to them the same way as Salmon angle would. Right? And

or

for us, it's... I I think what a lot of fly for fishermen don't realize is that

if politicians support Sam and they will by default

support a lot of the fish we love, which is steel head and trout and strike bass and all these type of things. So so, you know, the fight of the salmon is not just

guys that, you know, bounce row off the bottom and drag flat fish. Right? Like, Right. It's the one win

that we... Could get

as sports men because it's the most widely and most profitable fish out there. Yeah. I'll also say that it's also the most important

species

for derived nutrients in system. It's kinda of the canary and the coal money. Right? Like, it is the... It is the fish. If it goes away, everything goes away. Exactly. It will all start disappearing like you're saying with your analogy and

the importance of what we're seeing in certain systems, I mean, out on the north Coast,

they are finding

in the isotopes of the top of the redwood trees,

salmon.

The nitrates from salmon car Yeah. Are what allows

the health of the forest And Yeah. Allows the health of the river

To produce these derived nutrients like you said, that affect

bugs, life and the food web, which then in trains all or, you know, affect all species. Yeah. So we must protect the salmon in order to make sure that all of our na species

are healthy and thriving. Yeah. So what is... I mean, if you were to give a state of the union of the Central Valley Salmon, and what would you? How would you say

they're doing?

I'm scared to ask, but

I'm glad that you're scared to have

because that tells me that you've been paying attention, and I would say that the answer to that is that we're collapsed. Yeah. We are in a full collapse. State right now. And we are going to be in that state for at least a couple more years. Mh. The government hasn't been willing to

say that clearly enough because

I don't think the government ever tells us what we all wanna hear, but, you know, and and I tell people that, you know, you might not wanna hear this, but what you're gonna get from me is the truth. Yeah. And I want to educate through truth. Yeah. And through the understanding of, you know, how did we get here so that we can prevent history from happening again. Yeah. And so,

the state of the fisheries when it comes to the Sacramento Valley

are at the point to where if we don't do radical management change immediately?

We

will not be fishing for them for a while.

Yeah. So

there are a lot of things that we can, you know, start getting into on this podcast in future ones

about certain specifics Yeah. Around the salmon fisher.

But the numbers that are returning last year, you know, they're gonna announce all of these numbers on March first at the Salmon information meeting with California Department Efficient Wildlife.

I've privy to some of these numbers since I sit on all of the council's.

Seats. And so

the escape last year for

Sacramento Valley, Chin Salmon

is always set at a minimum of a hundred and twenty two thousand since nineteen eighty four. And so when you say escape, what does that mean? Great question Yeah. So I can hypo, but I know I'm not the only one that's gonna be like, what does that mean? Yes. Because a lot of people always say that to me, like, what's the escape. And so that's a great question.

So

the word escape means that a salmon excuse. Escapes the ocean and returns to the spawning grounds. Okay. That's completely different. I thought I'm I'm thinking like they're gonna escape the river and make it to the ocean. Right? It's the opposite. Yes. Okay. So escape means basically you're in river adult abundance.

Gotcha. So that's what it means. How many adults came back to the river. Gotcha. That's what escape means.

And then a jack

a Jack salmon would be a two year old fish. Okay. And that number is very, very important because how many two year olds escape the ocean

is the indicator

of how many three year olds will come back the following year. Gotcha.

And that's how we know that we're collapsed. Gotcha. Because for

we are now at the third worst

number of jacks

that we've ever seen in the history of the Sacramento era. Know what's funny about that is don't know who I was talking to. Wanna... I maybe Chuck or Ben one of us, but when we're fly fishing for stripe all summer, like,

most years, we're catching a jack a day on stripe flies because they're... I always just say they're the young and keyed up ones. Right? Like, they see sure russ and white fly in front of them, and they jump on it. Right. And

I didn't hook

one

all summer this year.

And that, like, usually, that's an everyday at occurrence. That makes sense. Yeah. So that's... That explains that. I thought I was doing something wrong. No. We were at the worst number, the department saying that there were six thousand nine hundred ninety seven jacks.

To give you comparison in two thousand eight nine were the... Two thousand... Yeah, eight nine were the other worst returns,

and those numbers were, like, nineteen hundred one year, and then, like, in the right below five thousand was the other. And what happened in those two years? We closed Yeah. They closed. We had closure.

And so with this number, it's not looking good. The last couple years like, thirteen thousand,

ten thousand is kind of that minimum threshold if you will. Okay. If I had to put a number on it, how many Jacks do we need to make sure that we might be fishing next year? Yeah. Ten thousand

Jacks is a healthier

number

plus.

Gotcha.

But, honestly,

I mean, we're... We look back historically now, and we go pre

closure, and we start looking at our nineties eighties numbers and those. You don't wanna see less than twenty five thousand jacks. No. It's it's... I don't feel old

until I think back on it, but it's like,

the the things I remember

of, I guess, the good years was like,

guides... Fly fishing guides now fish the feather in October.

Like I remember, we couldn't fish the feather in October because you'd lose every single rig. Yes because they're salmon everywhere. You... Like, I couldn't you couldn't fish it. Like, it just didn't happen. Like, they had to die before you could drift to fly through there. That's a great perspective. You know what I mean? Like, and I remember

I remember Stripe for fishing.

In thinking, like,

I never stripe or fish in the fall, like, as soon as August, that was, like, we're done. We gotta go do something else because it is a gong show.

Scott is packed. It looks like, you know, the grateful dead just showed up. Right And like,

now it's like,

I stripe her fish all fall because it's used... Not many people Probably had the whole river to south. It was. You know? So it's it's

I I think fly fishermen don't.

Their information comes when they stop and think about it and go, like, if you fly for twenty years in California, you remember

those days where you're like, yeah. I can't fish there. I'm gonna just lose every single rig or,

yeah, there's a hundred dudes camped out at the boat ramp or like, no. We can't put a boat in it barge bar and flow through barge hole. Like, that's suicide. Right? You know what I mean? Like, it's a great perspective to hear you say that, because

it's very ex, you know,

experiential evidence. Yes. But it's

if any... You know, if you used to float the sack as a guide, like,

what was barge hole twenty years ago, Like, you didn't go through it. No. In your little, you know, ding drift boat. Right.

Exactly true. And I I think of it a little differently, but I love your perspective because

that lets me

rem.

Totally same things. Yeah. Different perspective. Yes. And people people would always say to me, like, when I talk about Salmon, which I do every day of my life. Now.

People would... People say to me all the time. Like, you talk about the good days. And, you know, I mean, So your grandpa tells you about the good days and I go, no. No. The good days were during my lifetime and your lifetime. I mean, I'm forty three years old, and I remember a time

that was much different than the present. We're the same age. Yeah. And so I graduated Sac state in two thousand one. Yes. And those were the highest years. One, two and three were the highest salmon returns in the Sacramento Valley. Yep. We would get out of class and just go through

a spinner off of a spinning rod and catch eight to ten salmon and evening. Yeah. And let them all go. Yeah. And it was just fun. And then would go hey, does a new want me salmon? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. My girlfriend likes Sam. Okay. Let's keep one. Yeah. You know, and we just... Don't catch them for fun and let them go and spawn. But now it's like, my children are younger than yours. But my four and eight year old don't even wanna go salmon fishing because no fish to be caught. No. My... Like, I've taken my kids salmon fishing,

and my kids are down to fish

and not catch fish. Like, that... That's not a... Like, they don't need to catch fish. Not a requirement. Right? Yeah. No. But they like,

They're also, like, hey, dad like, we've gone Salmon fishing, like the last four times, and

we're not even seen them jump. Right? Like, that's it. You know? It's...

Their concept of me as a Salmon

or opinion of me as a Salmon fisherman is pretty low. So I always tell him it's like, nah, man you should have been here.

I feel like my kids feel like I'm pretty bad guy

know, with Sam and it's same thing. You know, we go stripe dad. We catch stripe. Yeah. We go to the lake could dad. We go sturgeon you. Dad. We do this, but, you know, everywhere we go down, we catch fish, but when we go Salmon and it's, like, maybe one, I know in a big man. I feel terrible. Like a terrible fishing guide. Totally.

But it's you know, it's one of those things that, you know, it's very important like, when we talk about our children and we talk about this

that we educate the

middle

generation of millennials because you hire

not millennials

but, you know, the thirty nine Yes. Absolutely. Down our millennials, and a lot of these people never saw what it was like to have a great fit. There's so many people that are that are our age that came to outdoor activities later in life. Right point. You what I mean? That, like, they don't quite understand. Like, you know? And

I think from a fly fisherman point of view. I I... You always, you know, like,

why don't they just make more fish. You know what I mean? I I Always you know, they're hatch tree fish, Why I don't they just make more. And most fishermen I think understand that it's probably more complicated than that. But

what has changed if you were to give me, like, the three things that have changed

that took it from what it was to what it is. In the short twenty

years. Yeah. Like... I mean, twenty years ago it was

unbelievable fishing. Well, yeah. And that's a,

you know,

I remember... And I mean, I am I'm sure you do this. But I remember growing up on the Hub, and it's, like, they showed up in September, and they were there till December. Yeah. The Uber. We used to Jd and others that fish their back in the eighties and nineties. They used to nickname the u Little Alaska. And I had heard that as a kid from those guys. Yeah. You know I mean? Because it was just incredible. Yeah. I mean, you had suitable cold water habitat. Yeah. Fish.

Everywhere. Threads

everywhere. And then an incredible steel had fisheries that came in behind it. Yeah. And that's where the fly guys really love to cover us and start throwing egg patterns behind reds. Yeah. And it was epic. Yeah.

And that's where I did some of my early fly fishing myself, and

you know, we can get back to that point.

So I think that if you... You're asking me... We're the top three three. Yeah.

Okay. Well,

one of them is gonna be water management As we've kind of been discussing. You know, We are not allocating

the proper water management to all four runs of salmon that exist.

In the only place in the world that we have four specific runs of salmon shut salmon Yeah. Sacramento or River,

we are not allocating the water equally across.

Meaning they're not getting the water down the river when the fish needed. That's correct. Okay. And that is all because of single species management. K. And that is because under Cv

in nineteen ninety two,

there was an allocation that out of all of the water that comes out of S,

we will allocate maximum eight hundred thousand acre feet for fish.

Gotcha.

But then when in nineteen eighty nine happened in the winter run got listed as endangered. Oh, yes. Yes. I remember this. Yes. Yeah. Then the state and federal government said all of that eight hundred thousand acre feet must go towards the winter run to recover the winter run. Gotcha.

But what we don't remember is that the winter run came

in January, February, March and April, and they're coming... They're in our river right now. Yeah. They're here. The winter run, the protected and endangered fish.

But they swim

past S

up into the high trips,

way up above S and Mc mcleod pit Sacramento

rivers

even into the backbone,

and then they

relaxed and swam up there in cold

snow melt water

throughout the summer and then spawned when it was right.

That's insane. But now

we have this

species that has been artificially propagated

since nineteen thirty seven. Yeah. And we've been pumping these fish into this system

below Ke dam

that do not have suitable habitat. They do not have proper water flow and water temperature.

And

we are now saying, okay. Well, they're not surviving. They're not doing well, give more water, more water, more water just to the one run.

Well, as we've had this tunnel vision towards protecting one species, which

I'm not advocating against. I'm just saying that this is what we've done. This is the issue. Right. Yeah. That we have now neglected the spring run. We've neglected the full run and the late full run. Gotcha. Now we are seeing the implication of that single species management.

So that's number one. That would be one topic, water management and I know we can unpack... Totally. No. No I'm just curious. Eight hours just on that, But pivot

But number one would be water management and slash single species management. We've got to

spread that water out for all species and what I advocated for just two days ago at the Fishing Game Commission.

The second thing I would say like you said is that we recognize that with these barriers

and with hatch fish being in there with the artificial propagation of these species to protect them and

have fishing opportunity. Yeah. The government was required to mitigate for the loss of habitat above these dams,

And that's why we had hatch trees. Yeah.

And so by getting these hatch in there,

we

got to the point to where some biologists

believed that hatch fish with the enemy. Yeah. And then, you know, I said today on a podcast or on a little live video I did on our on our Facebook in Butte City today. I said on it and I said,

in all of my years of guiding fifteen plus years. I've never had a client.

Catch a salmon,

smiling

ear to ear, and then I said that's a hatch fish and they've thrown it back in the water. And said, I don't wanna touch that thing or I don't wanna eat.

I've never had anyone negative towards it. But when you get into a scientific

debate with biologists,

they will tell you that the hatch stocks have basically

degraded the genetics

to a point

to where the fitness level of the fish

is not allowing for natural selection of these fish to breed with each other, and that's where you get a lot of debate. Yeah. And so you get into then arguments about Hs g, which is hatch Science review group, and then H g p's, which is hatch genetic management plans,

which are the way... Basically

the cloud of how each hatch can operate. Yeah.

And the end result of what they've done over the last twenty years since this. Right?

Is they have blamed the collapse of salmon on hatch trees.

And it's like, wait a second folks, you

you you can say what you're saying

because it is true and under genetic code. Yeah. But that's not why Salmon have disappeared. Yeah. From the system. Yeah. Water

is ninety five percent of the issue. That makes sense. And but now we're sitting here saying,

oh, it's the hatch fish. Right? Or it's the striped bass. Yeah. The striped bass are killing all the salmon. And if you go down to Southern California and you go down to Fresno and say, hey, How come we don't have Salmon in California?

They have been brain washed down there to tell you it's stripe. It's the striped bass. Yeah. And it's like, no. That's not the reason we don't have salmon anymore? So is it the, like, over

overthinking of managing

the genetic diversity

of the fish

in an essence of, like... That's a good way to put it. You know? I mean, I always try to say that there's only one man upstairs that can control these speaks. Yeah.

And

we are trying to play creator. We are trying to play, like, we know what's best. Yeah. And we are very smart creatures as human beings. Yeah. But these are the most resilient species on the planet. There's not another species

that can be as resilient as salmon that can go down to nothing and then rebound into something huge. Oh, absolutely. It can happen. It they can come back if we let them and give them some suitable habitat and flow and water Yeah. The hatch rays are going to play a crucial role in the Sacramento Valley if we wanna have salmon in the future. We must raise

moo fish because what's happened in this argument in the scientific argument is we have started reducing hatch production, and now we're sixty percent less hatch fish than we raised just twenty five years ago. So when the... And so that, I mean, that makes sense. So the... Just in the two, if you have better habitat with water, and you make more fish.

You're have a lot of fish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah okay. So we call that one word in in in in fisheries management.

We call that rec

colonization. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We have gravel bars that you're telling, you know, when I go stripe fishing, we're always hooking salmon. Yeah. Because on they're on those areas and your stripe

are predators that are sitting on the tail waters or on the head waters. Yeah. And trying to get and catch fish and eat fish.

So as your fly is coming down, you're gonna possibly line you know, with a streamer or you'll line us a line of S. Well, that's not happening like you said anymore because they're not here. Yeah. So the only way to

re bring in our natural

spawning fish. Right, is that we have to

artificially propagate these areas. And we can do that through a number of ways as many other states have done. Mh. We could start at the egg level

and do hatch boxes. Yeah. And put eggs in tri it as eyed eggs. Yeah. They will then

imprint to the water that they are in, hatch

imprint again as fry to that waters shed.

And then they'll will start coming back and guess what? When that fish comes back, it's not gonna return to the hatch, it's gonna returned to where a point of origin was. And so then you could start rebuilding your your stocks.

But under Hs r g, hatch Science review group,

that has been

started in two thousand three

Congress, and then Washington implemented it in two thousand seven Oregon in about two thousand eight, California two thousand ten. Mh. All the same times that our stocks collapsed. Yeah. Yeah. I went nothing.

When we started implementing that, we started saying, well hatch fish are bad. They're bad. We gotta remove them off the spawning grounds. Yeah. And so what they started doing was the only way they could remove them off the spawning grounds due to not having a budget or employees to go do that.

Was to

increase the flows and the hatch trees through the ladder,

keep the ladder gate open and start sucking all the fish into the hatch and then killing them un spawned.

And that's why we made the movie un spawned on Youtube. Yeah. Was to was to

show

that we have been sucking these fish in and we proved that they... They've been killing hundreds of thousands of fish. Yeah. Because they said, oh, well, if it comes into the hatch, then it's a hatch origin.

But they didn't do it because they had no adipose fin. Right? Yeah. So it didn't matter if it had Mat fin or not because we only clipped twenty five percent our fall run. Yeah. So even fish that were coming in with adipose fin that we had no genetic proof or no testing whether that could have been a

historic wild fish or a natural spawning fish that had been spawning in the rivers. Yeah. You know

Salmon are gonna go to where they're cold and cold water. Yeah. That's where they're gonna go. Yeah. Because they're resilient. Yeah. There's a natural stray rate, five to eight percent of sc

because the species needs to survive. Well, it's funny I remember you telling me at one point. I...

You know, there's this misconception in the in the fly fishing world that the Hub is this last bastion of

wild salmon. Yeah. And, like, most of those fish are hatch stray. Like, you... I it's like ninety some percent of those ninety eight percent. Yeah. And even when you look at that, it's it's over a hundred. It's a hundred. Yeah. It it it just is. And so, you know, a lot of our fly fishing, regional program managers, you know, Brian Cl, Yeah. Others that work with us, and, you know, you start looking at the dad and you start realizing what happened well... What happened was is that our feather fish got to the mouth of the Hub.

And they're, like, cold water right or your yeah. So they're all gonna go to the water. Yeah. But, you know, we've need to get to that point to of acceptance on that. And. And I'm not

defaulting that we need to make sure that we have good genetics. I'm absolutely totally in an agreement that way. Yeah. I just don't think that the way to

to advocate for this is to reduce hatch ref fish, reduce production, reduces abundance

reduces in the end, What is that equal? Abundance

equals angle enthusiasm. Right? Totally. Our kids wanting to say, hey. Yeah. Let's go salmon fishing. Yeah. Right? Because there's nothing like a twenty five thirty pound king stolen on the end indiana rod. There's not. It it's just exciting. It's just like a twenty pound stripe on your fly reel. You know, Just screaming. Yeah. You know? I wanna get that real burn. Right Right. Yeah. So we've got a we've gotta realize and understand that there are there all are are alternatives.

Yeah. To this type of management,

and there are ways that we can protect the genetics and protect the stocks so that we don't dumb down the stocks completely into nothing. Yeah. But what we gotta realize is that when we let go twelve million

sm.

And eleven million

nine hundred and eighty eight thousand die in Parish. Yeah. And the twelve thousand, one, you, you know, one tenth of one percent come back. Guess what folks, those are pretty resilient fish. I would say those are the good ones. I'll take that genetic genetics. I'll take that genetic too. Yeah. But the department will tell you that they still are an inferior fish, and they wanna kill them.

And I just can't grasp that around my head, that type of

ideology.

If we had healthy systems that had no dams and Yeah. The wall Yeah yeah wasn't there, then I can have that conversation on a micro level. But on a macro level, that's just the wrong type of management. Yeah. If you wanna say, hey, on a... A micro level, I've got a stream that has some chin that are coming back every year and we wanna try to manage that genetic. Yeah. I'm all for you doing Yeah. But on a level to where you can't even tell me how many fish are really in the river. Yeah. You don't even know it's all a guess and all estimates.

I don't think that we can manage according to that. So that would be number two. Okay. So we need

water and habitat is number one. Yeah. Hatch

management practices

are definitely going to be number two. Yeah. And then number three, believe it or not is our own fault.

In a way, and that's going to be harvest. Yeah. Right?

And no one likes to hear that? No one wants to hear that. And I'm always no one's friend when I say that. Yeah. Like James. How can you say that. And I said, well, we've gotta be fair and honest with ourselves. Yeah Gotta realize that, you know, if your bank account has a hundred dollars in it. Yeah. Okay? And that hundred dollars has to last for three months

That means you have a thirty three dollar budget every single month. Yeah. But what we do sometimes is we go out there and catch

or we spend Yeah. Ninety five dollars the first month, and we're scratching our heads while we're broke. Yeah.

So that's my analogy.

We have to manage these stocks better, and this doesn't come down on the backs of anglers.

Because anglers are fishermen,

we have a commercial fleet that is designed to go catch fish for people for food. Yeah. To feed people in our restaurants to feed people in whole foods, safe way, trader Joe's so that people that are less fortunate like you and I. Yeah. That can go out and catch our own dinner. Totally. Right? If we want to. Yeah.

That we're able to. And so we've got support that commercial industry so that we can provide food for people. Secondly, we've got the ocean

recreational fleet of people like us that we go catch our own dinner. I go do it. Right. Or go on a party boat or charter boat That's what I do. Hire someone right. To go catch some food so that we've got some food for our families.

And so there's nothing wrong with that. And then the inland capacity of inland guides and inland recreational. Yeah. Maybe get seas sick or... Yeah. Maybe don't wanna go out on that experience or like a more intimate quiet experience. Yeah. Or they just wanna go down to the river to go catch their dinner. Totally. And so from that aspect,

the anglers not at fault in my opinion, the harvest rates need to be controlled by our government, which Yeah. They're supposed to be, but they're not.

They're so flawed and the model that we currently use is so inaccurate

that the ups and downs,

the peaks and the valleys Yes. Are so apparent

that somebody that

wasn't even looking at the chart can tell you just through experience. Yeah.

And so

we need to

be better at that. And I think we're getting to that level now finally, Yeah. But the unfortunate part is that it's taken this third collapse now in fifteen years

of three three three year collapses.

So nine out of fifteen years are full collapse to where now we're going, okay. This isn't right. We're messing up. Like I... It's funny. I I I just popped in my head. Like, how many years I've, you know,

put the boat in somewhere and I'm going out with stripe and some guys coming in, Sam. Gonna like, oh, to catch and he's like, no. No No. And he's like, man, but they're whack them out in the ocean, they're gonna be here. They're gonna be here. Yeah. And they never show up. Yeah. You what I mean? So when you look at this year for a great example. Right? Yeah. I'm one of the four people at the P c that sit there and I put... I have my laptop that's here in my truck,

it has the model in it. Every day... Every year it gets updated, but then what I do is I am input, okay. The commercial fleet would like to fish this date, this date and this date. Mh. And the model kicks out to me how many fish it will estimate catch.

Oh. And then I put in this date, this state, this date for the

recreational fleet. Mh. And it... The model will then kick out to me how many fish they will catch every day. Yeah. In the four sectors, the K z, Fort Brag, San Francisco and Monterey. Gotcha.

It also the model then impacts of how many times we will contact or impact

the winter run. Gotcha. And how many times that will impact spring. How many times will impact the coastal shook nooks in the climate that are protected? Yeah. And then there is something called an an

exploitation rate, which is twenty percent maximum on winter run.

Sixteen percent maximum on the coastal chin. And the spring run doesn't yet have an exploitation rate, but that sets the thresholds of where we can and where we can't fish of the four sectors

the migration routes. Gotcha. Okay? So when we put all these numbers into the model, and it kicks it all out,

it tells us all everything we need to know.

So this year for computer is never wrong. Yeah. Right.

So this year, they said you have three hundred and ninety six thousand fish for a total abundance. Yeah. We had a really bad return in twenty twenty, and we're concerned on the stocks and the anglers are anglers, and myself said we need to make sure that we're sending more fish home. Yeah. So the way that we start that for easy math for the listeners is we'll just round it to four hundred thousand. We'll we'll round up four thousand fish. So four hundred thousand is our number of total number of that we have.

So then we said, okay, Well, for conservation measures,

according to the model,

we are required to send home a minimum of a hundred and twenty two thousand

to a maximum of a hundred and eighty thousand according to the nineteen eighty four document. Mh. So last year, we set that at the upper limit for conservation. Yes. Hundred and eighty thousand maximum

or minimum have to come home. Minimum. Hundred and eighty thousand.

You then put fourteen

percent on top of that

in order for harvest of inland stocks. Gotcha. River guys. River guys. Right. Right? So... And that's everywhere east of the Car bridge, so everyone knows. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. So we count

West of the Car bridge is Marine Waters, East of the Car bridge in Val is

River. River, Inland Inland waters. Right? Gotcha. So now you've got twenty five thousand two hundred on top of the hundred and eighty thousand. So now to make numbers easy two hundred and five thousand. Gotcha. So we take the four hundred thousand,

minus the two hundred and five thousand that leaves a hundred and ninety five thousand fish left to harvest in the ocean. Gotcha. So that's how we start.

Then you say, okay. Is great. Yeah. Not to confuse your listeners. No. No. It's just... It it the it... From a guy who

the amount of areas you've just hit. Where flaw is possible. Yeah. Or air? You're catching It's just like,

you're pulling numbers out of the air. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And so

you then go... Okay. So we've got these hundred and ninety five thousand fish. Then the commercial fleet and the rack fleet, we sit there and say okay, what's a fair split this year. Well, Oregon wants to catch some of our stock because our stock goes up there. Yeah. So Oregon wants a percentage?

So then Oregon gets their percent, and we negotiate with the Oregon guys, And then we then have a now a new number, which normally Oregon takes about twenty thousand fish. Let's yeah just for easy numbers today today. Gold Beach guys. Right. Gold Beach. Right? All the way to Coo.

So now we got a hundred and seventy five thousand and the commercial fleet says well, we're gonna do a seventy thirty split. So then you you calculate that out at or a sixty forty split or whatever that splits negotiated amongst the anglers at the P c. Wow. So now you have this hundred and seventy thousand number, and let's just say for numbers easy this year. Right? What it did come out to be was around

eighty five thousand for the rec fleet and around ninety thousand for the commercial guys. Okay. And that's where it was this year. Yeah. Right?

Okay. We're good to go. Okay. James input these dates for me. Okay. That comes back at ninety eight thousand fish, too many cuts and dates.

Okay. And then they get how many days they can get on the water, which the model says you'll only catch ninety thousand fish. For the commercial fleet this year, that was forty three days on the water. Wow. The least amount that they've ever had? It was a seventy percent reduction from the season before?

So they're mad. Yeah. They're.

They're pretty. Like, how do you expect us to live? How do you expect to do this, we can't do this, you know, and so then you start down that road. Yeah. The wreck fleet, eighty five thousand fish, opened a wide open season from April third

all the way to August thirty first. Just except for two week break in June in the middle that they had to take off. So we closed the rec fleet for two weeks in June this year in San Francisco.

Okay?

Monte was wide open the whole season.

San Francisco, Fort Brag had a two week

break. Gotcha. Alright? And so there there we are with the numbers. And so now you go fishing. Right? And that's how we manage.

Alright. That's how we manage. But here... So let me ask you this. So when you give the commercial fleet a number.

Is there a dude

everyday counting their fish?

Yes and no. Okay. So that's a great question.

Yeah. So

the commercial fleet are required to report their landings

daily?

Gotcha. And there does... There is a Cd w checker that is required, but they are not required to sample all the fish. Gotcha. They kinda like, turn it in your steel head cards. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole another. I'm on the steel

yeah. I've got a whole podcast for you on that. Let's do that sometime.

The Steel out report card. I'm one of five members that sit on that committee, and there has been no one reading your data for six years. I have no doubt. We have a few million dollars in the bank right now from the report cards, and no one's been doing anything with the data. The tons about right. Yeah.

So, yeah, when you get to that and you start,

you know, recording that data, and they go out fishing, They just go out fishing, but there's no one saying, hey. We hit the nine thousand number. Yeah. Or there's no everybody stay home. Yeah. You caught your fish. Yeah. You're done. Right? Yeah. Nobody's ever done that. It's always just well, we got forty three days, and that's what we're gonna go fish, and they don't even get a fish all those forty three days because of weather. He Gotcha. You know, you get big c's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So out of those forty three days, I think they only fish, like, twenty seven. Right? Oh,

they caught two hundred and fourteen thousand fish.

Right? They're good at their job. They're good at their job. Right? Yeah. But I always say that it's not your fault because that's your job. Yeah. What you're supposed to do is go catch fish. Yeah. For people.

The rec fleet actually, on their entire season. They stayed right about where they were supposed to right around the eighty five thousand this gotcha.

But that's not always the case. Yeah. Rack fleet has gone way over before also.

The commercial fleet has gone down before. So gotcha. It is a Teeter to,

but it's a flawed system like you said. It just doesn't work like this every. Yeah. Now remember this, when I do say that the commercial fleet caught two hundred and fourteen thousand. That is all stocks.

Gotcha it. Same goes with the rack fleet. Gotcha. So then you have to take out any oregon fish that we caught. Gotcha. Take out any clam fish that we caught. Gotcha. And then the Mc fish and the San Joaquin, you gotta take those out because those are different systems. Gotcha. Then you get a proportional rate. Which averages for your listeners about sixty to eighty percent of the total harvest

is the sack fall. Gotcha. Okay. So you do that range of sixty... So how accurate is it how... I mean, because I hear that. And, I mean, I've been on plenty

you know, day trips to go salmon and fish fishing out of the bay and

how is is somebody on that? Is the deck can being and like, well, that's Mc nicole fish. Throw that over there. We got a report We got a c fish everybody or like... So they don't even know. The only way we know.

Is the twenty five percent of the fish that do have no add post fin that were clipped at the hatch. Yeah. Have the code wire tag in their head. And so that's why when you get back to the dock. Chop. They chop the head, and then they analyze that, and then they try to

create an algorithm of an exponential rate and expand that out. You know. So you're taking twenty five percent and trying to expand it to a hundred percent. Essentially. But it's not just an easy title or multiplier. No. And every year, it's almost always wrong. Yeah. So this year, part of the problem of why we only ended up with sixty one thousand back

to the... To us here in the river was because there was...

Over performance of harvest in the ocean compared to what the model said, but that's only half of it.

The other half of why we didn't get fish back this year was because, there are no natural spawn anymore

contributing to the natural spawning component. Gotcha. And so since the model is still

believing,

like we're back in the old days, like there's still a natural spawning component. Yeah. So our pre season abundance forecast of four hundred thousand.

At the end of the year, when it's all done,

you calculate

the

inland harvest.

Okay? Mh. The escape,

and the proportional rate of ocean harvest that were sack fall. Gotcha. That creates the post

season

abundance. Gotcha. And what we're seeing year after year after year for the last fifteen years,

is that the pre season forecast and the post season forecast are widely different. And then that's the that's the algorithm in the model. There you go. Yeah. So the model saying that these fish exist, but they really don't. Yeah. And so it's about it's honestly, this year was around even.

We over performed about seventy thousand fish that we shouldn't have harvested in the ocean, and they should have came home, which then would have put about one thirty home. Right? Which... I mean, that's... That's, you know, about average late latency? Yeah. But if the model would have been predicting right too? Yeah. You would have end up sending home

what the model said. Now let's talk about that real fast. What did the model say it was gonna send home this year. A hundred and ninety eight thousand

plus the twenty five thousand for harvest. For harvest. Yeah. So the river run size was supposed to be two hundred and twenty three thousand

kings.

But we had sixty one thousand Yeah. Plus five thousand harvest. We only harvested twenty percent of what we were even supposed to. Yeah. So where is the twenty thousand from the harvest and the hundred and fifty thousand that are missing? We have a hundred and seventy thousand fish that were like Kaiser so Yeah. There's zeros and ones in a computer program. Right? Yeah. Got it.

So it runs on r.

It runs on r. Oh, man. That's how the model works. It runs on the r model. The code of coding, and it's zeros and ones. You're right. And so

that's my biggest argument that I've learned and been educated myself is going through this process of sitting on this council and my background and my knowledge Yeah. And all of us, you many others that you know, we speak about our life experiences. That has validity Yeah in understanding the system.

And so that's where we are in this system. We've lost our natural spawning component that is completely gone. So our model is,

inaccurate

predicting our pre season abundance, which doesn't exist, and then we go out and harvest on this pre season number,

and we shouldn't be because we are Yeah. Over performing of what we should be harvested. You're getting a scouting report for the wrong team. You got it. Yeah. And that... You know I mean, all that... I mean, why was there, you know, no fish on reds and redding well? Because the ocean guys whacked more fish than they should have and Right. The computer program told them it was okay. It's...

You know, it's... And and I think some of that too, like, I'm thinking about it. It's, like, you know, that that is in and of itself, why a lot of people have lost faith. Right? Like,

you know, I think if

if someone told me as like a stripe guide. Like, hey, Dude, you're not gonna guide for stripe for a year, and that's what the fisher needs.

If I trusted the person that was given me the information, I'd be like,

alright. I'll figure that out. Like, I can do that. If if it's gonna help get back to

the late nineties and what I remember say of Salmon fishing, then, yeah, dude, But I I don't think at this stage an age, that computer program, essentially, everybody's lost faith. Right? Like, All of us have... Yeah. If you go until the ocean guide. Yeah. If you go and tell somebody like, hey, you're gonna close the season,

well, like, how accurate are the inform... You know what I mean There's...

I don't know. That's tough. Right? That's a tough position. Yeah. Because we as humans

at least

the ones of us that like to critically think. Yeah. We we like to at least get data that we can trust. Absolutely. And then we want to analyze that data. Yeah. And then we want to analyze species

protection

And then after that, then we have to put a small variable of soc economic. Absolutely. On top of that. And then we say, okay, well, what's best for all. Yeah. Right?

And you're... You're absolutely correct. That is the decision we are going to be faced with this year because

the third lowest jack returns in the history.

Yeah. Are now going to predict one of the lowest abundance that we've had since two thousand eight.

And now we have to make that decision. Do we have

very short small fisheries this year

on an abundance that's like two hundred thousand estimated this year now. Half of what we were last year?

Or

do we just close the entire season,

and we

pray

and advocate for proper water flow and management and let the species rebound so that in three to four years

we are fishing.

Because if we don't, we could put ourselves in in trouble to where we've seen closures like we've never seen before?

Now,

does a closure help?

You know? I mean, I assume if you

let those ocean fish when you say closure, you mean, no salmon fishing. No ocean, nothing. Nothing.

And so those fish,

theoretically,

say half of them, a third of them that the ocean guys

were wack and are gonna make it up wherever. They'll dodge the seals and the Yeah. Whatever. Sharks sharks in the you know Tea lion. I don't, you know, all this, you know, the alligator in the delta who knows? You know?

And then that would help

that run? I mean, is it... Does that help, I guess closing it? I mean, is that a, like, a band aid on a

bullet hole type of deal. So theoretically,

when salmon stocks are healthy, all salmon stocks across the West Coast,

fishing

is not the problem. Yeah. Like is not the issue. It's it's a very

small amount

of a healthy stock. Yeah. And there is no evidence that proves that harvest

has ever, you know, ruined and cripple stock.

And that's kind of my philosophy.

You know, especially in a in a officially as big as, like, a salmon fisher. You know, you go to Deer Creek and you start whack and five fish a day, and it's a wild trout stream like, yeah. That's gonna

that's gonna do some damage. Sure. But in an unhealthy abundance of stock.

When you have low abundance

and you over harvest. That's a major problem. Gotcha.

So we have to

understand the dynamics

of

fisheries management

and how that correlates with harvest according to abundance. Mh. And the problem is is that when we get into these really lower abundance times,

these lower abundance

and we are over... Forming the model because Yeah harvest model. Yeah. It's called the ocean harvest model. Yeah. That model's not accurate. Yeah. And if it's not accurate, and we're over performing

on depleted stocks, then, yes. We are doing damaged

future where are destroying it. Yeah. And let me even extrapolate just a tad bit more for you on one other topic.

As I mentioned to you,

the

abundance last year was estimated at four hundred thousand. Yeah. The truth is is that it's gonna come in probably below three twenty, Mh. Maybe even below three hundred.

And one of my scientists says it could even go as low as two sixty. Wow. So if we were out,

you know. A hundred and,

you know, fifty thousand fish that just disappeared out of the model and are gone.

We

are

setting our seasons, and we're harvesting

on a false premise,

Right? Yeah. I mean, you you literally are planning for a team and a different one shows up. Right? And so I said that at the fishing game commission just two days ago. We are harvesting on an abundance that is false.

And so therefore, now that the abundance are gonna be at record lows this year, and you say we have two hundred thousand fish,

let's send home a hundred and sixty

from proper management,

but let's harvest thirty forty thousand of these things.

I'm standing there saying, hey, everybody. Red flag, red flag,

that abundance that you were saying is two hundred, guess what? It's really probably one fifty.

Because the natural spawning component

has not been adjusted in the model. Yeah. And those fish didn't spawn three years ago correctly. With low water. It was hot and the egg mortality was high

So those fish aren't gonna make it out. The only fish that we had were the attach fish that we truck.

And so

that number really one fifty. So now you go out there and harvest those thirty, forty thousand. Now you're finding out where I'm gonna lead to. I'm leading you right into. Now you have less than a hundred thousand coming into the river. Yeah. Then you have river harvest, then you have adult mortality, natural mortality. Yeah. Then you have per nation, sea lions

attacking them throughout the est in the delta system.

And so now what you have coming home is a collapse. Yeah. And here we are again. So I want the listeners to understand that phishing is not the cause of this However,

fishing harvest can

affect

returns

on low abundance yields. Yeah. It I mean, it's...

When you get down, if you got a big fisher and everything's there, you're not harming things by

whack in a few fish or taking fish home. But, like,

you know, if you're pulling grain the sand out of a sandbox versus grain of sand out of a t.

It's a little different. Good.

You know? So, like,

You know, and I think the fly fishing community. I mean, if there's one thing that fly fishermen can tell you is how many salmon reds there's been. Because, you know. Yeah. Sam fly fishermen like fishing egg drops. Yes. They do. You know, and, like, no one in the fly fishing world would tell you that the egg bite

over the last three to four years has been good. Yeah. You know what I mean? So the concept of that, like, that natural spawn is not happening.

Ask any fly fishing guide redding.

How's the egg bite pen to be like, a non existent. Yeah. Yeah.

So I mean, it it jive with everybody's experience,

you know?

So

one last question and it's probably

a big one, But

there are still people

that will...

You know, you talked about Striped Bass, and we talk a lot about Striped Bass. Yeah.

I always use the analogy, I tell people you know, if

the balance of lions and Gaze on the Ser Getty is fine.

When you got the Ser getty.

But if you put those lions in gaze cells in a fence compound,

the lions are gonna kill all the gaze cells.

And I always use that analogy of, like, when we have water,

There's enough room for everybody. Sure. And when there's not water,

it's tough. Yeah. And and I don't know if that's accurate or not.

I I I like the analogy.

And I know it's more complicated than that, but, like, it's not that easy, But Yeah yes. Yes. It's it's you know, you you're putting it in a different perspective for people to have a picture. Yeah. You know?

I will say that,

you know, eighteen seventy nine when we introduced. Stripe and brought them over from the East Coast in wine barrels,

you know, and keeping them alive. Yeah. You wanna talk about hardy animals. Yeah. I mean, you're you're telling me you're... I mean, that was done by wagon.

Right. Before the Trans continental railroad. Right. Yeah. So you're you're telling me that we brought these things over and we had the capability of keeping these things alive to create a commercial and recreational fisheries. That's why they were brought over here. Yeah. And we brought the wonderful species of striped bass over here,

and they thrived,

and then they collapsed

along the same side as all other badger species. Yeah.

And then they started to rebound a little bit in the sixties and seventies,

and then nineteen sixty eight came with the state water project with Governor Brown.

And

then all of the water started getting

moved from one part of the state to another part of the state. Yeah. And you watch all

species

collapse. Yeah. Together, parallel. Yeah. Right? Oh, the graphs of stripe populations and salmon populations

overlaid with, like, yearly rain totals

is like insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They trend the same as chico say people going out at night. Totally. Thursday Friday night, it just seems Whether... Yeah. Whether whether you're me or, you know, Freshman in twenty twenty three. It's pretty similar. Right. Right? So, you know, you can look at these trends and analysis and understand that

anyone that says...

That striped bass or the cause of Salmonella decline.

You know, are, I would just say that are... They're ignorant in the salmon species management of fisheries management. Yeah. You know, do striped bass eat salmon

Absolutely they do. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. But so do many other species. Native species. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Native and non native. Right? So we don't realize that, and we don't want to analyze that. We just want to give a scape go

because of what maybe our grandpa told us. Totally or what our best friend told us or maybe I was on a fishing guides boat and the fishing guide told me this is what the reason was. Yeah. Because you think that they're the expert, and so you hired a fishing guide and then that fishing guide

really has no clue about management.

No. But they're just a good angle. Totally. And maybe they told you that it's stripe asphalt.

And so

the truth is is that the amount of prudential from all species on cell audits is so my

over the larger

stress. Yeah. That are affecting salmon that even if you were erased all striped bass out of the system, all catfish out of the system, all black bass out of the system. Mendoza. And you killed every pike min and you killed every comma and you killed every bird and every otter and every every single other animal. Yeah. That's still per on them, the biologist at Cd w would tell you that if you still don't give salmon water, they will not rebound.

Every And that's the truth. Yeah. That the stress of water and habitat is so much more important

that when you give Salman water,

per nation is not an issue. Yeah. And that... That's that's always been my experience. So Yeah

Absolutely. So, you know, we're working hard on Striped bass and what your angle... Your listeners need to understand is that Striped bass

are on a parallel decline. Yeah. We're actually, the adult population is less.

Than any than any other time in history.

The estimated

population isn't evident like we don't know exactly where it's at, but it's estimated by a few of the top scientists

to be under three hundred thousand.

That's insane. To give you an analysis, we used to have a historic average

of one million adults over eighteen inches at all times throughout our system. Yeah. The system is managed from monte

all the way up through Pacific throughout the est, the bay, the delta and river systems combined.

And the high was over three to five million striped bass adults saying in the system. Could you imagine? Got did. Like, in our lifetimes, we have never seen that. No. I I I mean, I feel like I catch a lot of sc. Yeah. So people say, well, well what where were they when they increased, well, when they increased in water in the nineties at the highest levels as and this was through artificial propagation because they were the net pens and striped bass stamp. I remember buying the stamps. Yeah. Yeah. Three to three to three seventy at they like that. And

those numbers,

got us up over the top of five hundred thousand. When we fell below five hundred thousand adults in the eighties,

that's when the commission stepped in, and the California Striped Bass

Association and a few others,

started stepping in, and we came up with the stripe stamp. They came up with the fact that we needed to start raising more stripe. Yeah. And we got the population into about the early nineties up into about seven hundred thousand, maybe eight hundred thousand. Yeah. But since then, we've been at just a steep steep decline. So the interesting thing is is that in those late nineties when Salmon were at the number one return ever in the history of the... In two thousand two, over nine hundred thousand fall run salmon came back. Yeah. Seven hundred and seventy five thousand adults and over a hundred and forty thousand jacks, and we harvested ninety thousand of that's insane. Right? Ever. There's a million fish in our river. A million.

Salmon. Just one run. That's insane. And we got a harvest ninety thousand, and that's what I say to everyone. Harvest rates go up when abundance goes up. Yeah. If there's more fish. Yeah there's more catch. The Cpu e. Right? The catch per unit.

And so as you get more fish in the system more of those come in. But at the same time, when the salmon were at their peak.

Right? Yeah. Stripe were already declining.

Gotcha. And so you started seeing stripe declined before Salmon declined. Now, the scientists will tell you that that is what you that you said earlier is that you said that they were the important species. Right? Salmon.

Striped bass.

Are the indicator species.

And that's what we need to make sure that we're recognizing because when striped bass, the resiliency of them, they can travel and live and migrate through warm and cold law. Oh, they're... I mean... Right? They're tougher mean, I'm not a salmon guy, but

you could throw a stripe on the bank for a while and he'll come back alive. You know what American.

They're strong fish. Yeah. And so when you realized that that those species were declining.

Before the salmon were declining. Yeah. That's the indicator

of the health of the ecology.

Gotcha. And then what happened was is that we had a recall election in two thousand three. I remember that. And we We got a new governor in, and he was from Southern California,

and he shipped all the water south two thousand four five six and what happened.

Salmon collapsed. Yeah. Because of water. Yeah. It had nothing to do with strike back. No. I I I mean, I don't think so. Do you ever think we will see a a situation where they raise striped bass again?

No. Yeah. No.

Politically,

they will never ever allow that to happen. Yeah. We are fighting Nor cal guides and sports

association is fighting on the frontline with the coalition of Anglers,

and we have never been more unified. Yeah.

Throughout the fly community.

Just the community. The entire community

is together on white ba management, and we have been working great together for three years.

I am working

alongside the coalition and leading these fights for

the slot limit Yeah. So that we can iconic protect the species. Yeah. We came in with the twenty to thirty inch limit so that we could protect our big breeder female bass. Yeah. And that you could still go angle for them, but it's a totally release fisheries for your trophies.

Which will then

build the population up, it will then encourage better breeding.

And then also,

on the smaller inside, is that we wanted to raise that eighteen to twenty inches, because that's a big age gap of

for Gotcha. Spawning. Yeah. Females

reach fa at about four or five, six years old now. Younger than they do on the East Coast. Yes. The East coast at seven, eight, nine years old. Yeah. And so if we can find a way to protect the bass at their younger ages, allowing the females to breed before we remove them from the system.

Then we'll be better off long term. Yeah. This is just like Salmon management what we're saying. Yeah. If we close for a year, can we protect ourselves three, four, five, six years out. Right?

If we in

institute,

ourselves a slot limit on the striped bass,

can we ensure that your grandkids

will have opportunities to catch striped back? Yes. Absolutely. Yes, we can. Yeah. But if we don't,

we're gonna put ourselves in the same situation as Salmon. Yeah. Whereas,

the water is so bad. The stripe aren't spawning well. They're broadcast spawn. Yeah. And they will not spawn well. And

their biggest issue is not so much of water,

the temperature,

it's water quality.

Gotcha. It's the contaminants in the water. Gotcha. The stuff in the water is what's killing a lot of our spawn on our striped bass. And I never knew that. Yeah. So the contaminants is a really big issue, and you get read the paper from doctor doctor David Os who Mh. Worked with doctor Peter Mo for years. I've A bunch of mo stuff his books and Yeah. He... They've wrote so many great papers.

And, I mean, literally, I I started off in college

wanting to be a game warden, and so I started off with Marine Biology biology ocean. Yeah. And I did that in my first two years and then I pivot

into criminal justice

because either either major would be good. Yeah. And so I said, oh, well it'd be... To have a little of both backgrounds and so I pivoted,

and I graduated. But now, here I am. Right? Full circle. Yeah. Twenty five years later going, I wish Would've stick in biology. I was I woulda had a little bit better background. But, you know, the overall picture, good

for us is so that if we can have a angle management tool

to where we're not...

Removing

the harvest

of these fish too early. Yeah. Have more female bass reach custody,

and have a little bit better spawning and hopefully, at least for the beginning stages,

level out the population in that two hundred and fifty three hundred thousand range. And then we can start working on management techniques of how we can rebuild. Gotcha. Coin with sugar salmon. Gotcha. But again, it's water. Yeah. No. I I I think every... I I mean, if you don't realize it's water, then you're not paying attention as far as I'm concerned. So We'll, tell everyone where they can find the Northern California guides and Sports

association if they wanna join up or they're interested and

we'll let you on your way, but it's a great organization. I know you have many fly anglers. You have many gear angles. It is kinda everyone. Right? It is. Yeah. We have commercial anglers, Ocean Anglers,

all the charter boats. We got we got a lot of charter boat operators. We've got a lot of guides. We've got a lot of fly guides. I mean, we have everyone from every demographic.

Of the fishing england community.

We are not about one group. We are about all of us together

unified, working on the common goal of protecting all fisheries for our kids and grandkids

So you can find us, you know, check us out on all the socials, you know, Facebook and

Instagram or our top two Nor cal guides and Sports

Association or go to the web and our website. You can read all of our science documents, all the projects that we're working on, and the website is in c g a s a dot org. That's our acronym in c g a s a dot org. We kept the membership fees as little as possible. Twenty dollars. Yeah. It's very cheap. That's it. If you're a guide out there, a charter boat operator, it's fifty dollars, but it's something that you can join and afford and put your name on part of the group so that when we go into these meetings, we can say we represent this many people. Yeah. Our membership about to cross over four thousand people. That's great. And it... It's wonderful.

It... It's great to know that there's so many great people out there willing to continually support this organization year after year after year. We started in nineteen ninety two,

in Redding, California.

And we were three four hundred people throughout the nineties and two thousands. And the organization collapsed and we went to zero members.

And then when I took it over in two thousand sixteen, we had no members with zero. Wow. And it it wasn't... Because that's... I don't think of it. I mean, I grew up as a flying in Nevada county. And I... It it was not a reality to me. No. Yeah. It wasn't a reality to me either in Sutter County and lower Delta and I used to guide throughout... A delta and Yeah. Fish black bass and everything else. But we are representing lots of different people. We're out there for you. You know, you can reach out to us. You can come to meetings. We do virtual zooms. We do a lot of different things, at We give back to the kids, we give away over twenty lifetime licenses to the kids every single year. So that they're some increasingly fishing. Yeah. Yeah. Just in the last six years, we've given away over a hundred thousand dollars in lifetime licenses.

Wow. And we write those checks to the department. You you know what It's like, hey. We're over here doing our part. Yeah people and interested in keeping the kids into it. Yeah. You gotta do your part. Yeah. Raise more fish.

Protect the water, and let's get these abundance back up so that we have kids. You remember everybody out there. Hashtag,

less boxes,

more tack boxes. That's a good one. That's a good one.

Alright, James. So I like Thank you for having you come on, and we'll definitely have to have you back and, you know, good luck to and your Travels, and hopefully, everyone checks out the Northern California Guidance Sports

Association, and

We'll talk to you next time. Take care.

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