Derek Rivchin of Low Water Guide Service Phoenix, AZ

Hot podcasting from Chico California.

This is the Bart fly fishing podcast.

Where we discuss North health life Fishing, guiding fisheries science and management,

conservation and more.

No better, fish better. Here's your host, Hogan Brown. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. This So Brown this is the Barb podcast.

And it is, well, I'm recording this intro the first of March,

which in my world,

essentially

marks the end of the winner.

I no longer associate,

with winter as it is March, March means spring,

at least in my own mind.

The weather right now would lead

me to believe my mind is wrong. It's f cold blowing wind and basically every bump

that I see in the state around me has snow on it. We've been just

getting

hammered with snow.

Driving across the valley up here out of Chico

today. It was

snow on both sides all the way up

and not like the the, like, dusting where you can kinda see

stuff sticking up, but like just solid.

So

good news

for the

the filling of reservoirs and the flowing of rivers through the

hot summer months, so good news.

But definitely putting a cramp in most people's

recreational fishing,

drove over the sack he went out to look at it, and it is

fairly brown and fairly high as I imagine

most rivers are as it rained a ton in the valley as well over the last couple days.

So,

you know, gonna be a bit. Gonna be a minute

before anybody can get out and do something the lakes are still going. You know, the water's coming up fast in War.

S, S as, I think up to seventy percent fill. I looked at the the B website today, but

they continue to fill. They continue to, you keep coming up. You know, it's kinda at the point where, like, winter we're gonna start dumping water. You know,

with all the snow and all the snow that is gonna melt,

I I'm I'm glad I'm not the guy who's doing the math on if we have enough room for it all in

reservoirs.

So

hopefully, if if that guy is listening or anyone knows that guy, make sure that guy's well fed well slept rested

and can do his math

accurately.

So other than that,

me and Oliver, my fourteen year old son, we went down to the

fly fishing show.

This last weekend at Pleasant. It was

fun, fun to hang out with him for the day me and him hung out in the Scott Booth. He worked the Scott Booth with me and

my good buddy, Matt Cali and Jim Bar, president of Scott Fly rods and Theresa.

Both were out from Mont,

and

attendance was...

I don't say it was good.

But,

I was only there Friday Saturday and Friday,

There was some traffic and then it it, like, died. You know, it was

basically the people that had paid to have a booth hanging out.

And, Saturday was definitely busier.

It kinda died at the end of the day, like it A usually does, and then

we left that night. You know, came home, but, my buddy matt, matt Cali said that Sunday was pretty busy, which is

not traditionally the case. So maybe the pattern shifting, but it was good to see a lot of people

you know, lot... I mean, gosh, everybody's there,

You know,

all the brands, the shops,

fly fishing specialties Los Coast outfitters just have

enormous booths and you know, have a bunch of sales and do a bunch of business there,

bunch outfitters

and travel businesses, and then, you know, the normal, the Sims, the sage is, the Redding,

Scott, Api,

airflow,

ross, all those were there too. So it was good. Good to see everybody good to chat. You know, there's a lot of good products

coming out from everybody a couple new rods,

you know,

cool to see a lot of the abel reels in person there's gosh. I mean, the

abel reels have essentially reached, like, artwork status with some of the stuff that they're putting on them and engraved and and them and stuff like that. So

good to see. Good to be there.

Other than that, not a whole lot going on.

We got the Cal bass union days coming up, March eleventh at fly fishing specialties. We're gonna have a...

Could be eleven Am to three Pm ish,

we're gonna have a full slate of the union members there, present talking about bass fishing throughout California,

at least Northern California.

So we'll be given presentations doing flight tying presentations we'll have a raffle

have some merch for sale and to hand out.

And then we're gonna put the pan back together again April first and head down to the friendly con finds of San Francisco and

host another Cal

day at Los Coast outfitters. With Georgia Val and his crew, and that'll be

presentations, fly tying

demonstrations, or raffle.

Probably have some beverages to sample and drink and

maybe even some food we'll have to see. So those are coming up gear up for those, you know, and

got a couple spring barbecue

coming, I think April twenty ninth is the fly fishing specialties one will be down there probably hanging out doing stuff.

Not sure if I'll be there, but the union will be there in in effect. So

it is as I said, as I start the show

Officially, if not unofficially spring, at least in my mind,

it's gonna really feel like spring here pretty quick when the time change hits, and that is like,

that's, you know, full speed ahead. So once it starts getting dark at like seven thirty eight o'clock at it game on.

So I'm

pretty excited for that even though I still turned my heater on every morning and

I'm wearing flannel and

nowhere near

shorts and flip flops. So...

Guest today,

got an exciting

exciting guest from the the great state of Arizona out and Sunny Phoenix, Derek R,

owner and operator of

low water guide service.

And

a guy I've known for a while. This does a ton of really cool stuff

out in Phoenix, Arizona, which

cool fly fishing in Phoenix, Arizona not things that usually go together.

At least in most people's mind, and, you know,

I met Derek probably...

I don't know. A couple months ago, we went out and did a video,

different fish different places the chapter one for Loo outdoors.

Dominic Bruno

went out there and filmed it. And

it is

not

a place you would think someone would decide a smart career move would be to a be a fly fishing guide,

but Derek has done it and done it successfully. He runs

a couple

different guides, a bunch of different types of trips.

None of it being conventional in the sense of, like,

I walk and wade trout. It is

completely

unconventional,

completely

unique as you would imagine it would have to be in

a place like Phoenix, Arizona. So

I've been trying to get him on the show for a while and just kinda talk about it because also the the one of the founders, if not, the founder of the Barb podcast Chat, there's some relocated out there. And

I know Chad has actually gone out with Derek and

learn quite a bit from him, and if you followed chad on Instagram, he's back at it, pulling on fish and getting back out there. So,

pretty interesting place

from what Derek kinda shared with me and talks to us about. So hopefully, enjoy it. Hopefully, you're you're warm and

not snowed in somewhere though I imagine a lot of you are. So stay safe out there, and, we'll see you next time. Take care.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Barb podcast. This is Hogan Brown. I am excited to welcome my guess Derek, and I'm not gonna say your last name Derek because I'll probably butcher it. How do you

properly say your last name.

It is. It's phonetic correct. So it's just r like a river and then the chin on your face is how I was explaining it. Okay. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. That's where I was gonna go, but every time I do that, I, usually I'm wrong. So people always in the chair and do our cuss so they're like, R ken.

Yeah. It's a just Rip chin. Just let it roll out.

It's exactly I would spelled. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's great, man.

Country. But... Yeah.

And, why don't you tell the listeners where you're from and what you do?

So I I'm from Phoenix, Arizona, and I, own and operate with a couple other guides, low water guide service,

and we just do fly fishing trips pretty much

in the Phoenix area, we venture out up into a pace area, but mostly just centered it Right, Phoenix.

That's

that's a

a kinda somewhat of an oxy more as a fly fishing guy in Phoenix Arizona. And of course people think of it as desert. But are you... Are you born and raised in Phoenix? Yeah. Yeah. So I was born just

maybe fifteen minutes from where I live right now. And so I've always kind of, like,

I used to gear fish a bunch and I was real little with my mom and stuff, but my

dad was never a fisherman. So I was always, like,

just trying to figure stuff out of my own and not throwing the right stuff. But, yeah. Yeah I was wondering race here.

Oh, man. It's amazing how many

because my...

The same kinda of deal goes for me, but it's amazing how many people the more people I talk to, I guess throughout my life, like,

mom was the catalyst for the outdoors. Yeah. Yeah. That is Yeah. That is a theme that continually repeats itself that is not

necessarily

what you would think.

Yeah. And

my dad was, like, outdoors, but it's not in the

like,

fishing and hunting, saying he, like, road dirt bikes and jet skis, but Kinda riding jet skis. We're stuck at the week lake every weekend. So... Yeah. That's what I was like. It was back in the day when they had those

the real narrow jet skis that are, like, super hard to ride. So I was like, I out. I'm only, like, eight years old.

I would just, like, throw these crazy lures out in the middle of the lake and just hang out fish,

put my dog argument

all kinds of horror stores. That's awesome.

So how'd you get into fly fishing being in Phoenix? How'd that how'd that start?

Gosh. So were.

I was gear fishing

and my wife bought me a fly rods, just like a little bass pro fly fly rod.

Yeah. And god, that was probably nine years ago now.

And so we just started going through the motions of that. Like, we would go up to the mountains and trout fish. Because that's what everybody doesn't.

You get a fly rod. Yeah.

Did that and just got, like, super addicted to that,

sold that rod and like, went and bought, like, a good rush. So I was like, I Need something good.

I'm gonna stay with it.

And then from there,

I think, like, Casey Badger was, like, just the Redding finder

find water video just came out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Cut. I think I saw that, and I was like, holy shit. And then it was like,

I might have been talking to Casey at that point but. Was just, like, blew it up, and then, he started showing me how to, like,

catch the carpet in the canals or in the ponds. Yeah. And then that's just gonna... Then I was like, alright. I'm all in.

That's a good story. Because I mean, there is, like,

there is a history of fly fishing in in the Phoenix, Arizona. Right. I mean. I mean, I remember coming out for spring training.

Yeah. Probably

fifteen to

eighteen years ago and fishing with John Rome up on Some

up on some small mouth lakes. And Yeah. So I mean, it it's there. It's just...

I'm always interested how someone

in the area,

you know, a young man like, he was like, yeah. That's what I wanna do.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, have Roam used to guide for bass out on my, the Salt River lakes were, like,

Guy, I couldn't even imagine how he was doing it back. Thank you. Some of those lakes are so tricky, and he was, like, full on guiding him, but he's

he's on another level for sure. Yeah. I mean, we... I I didn't... At the time it was like, I was out there with my dad.

And we were going to spring training. My buddy, John Sherman was coming out for, like, a

a sales...

I think it was show on somebody in Arizona or something. So, like, I stopped client saw Sure.

And then

booked a trip with John and me and my dad went out with him.

Yeah. It was a bit of a drive

from. Yeah. Bet where we were.

But Yeah. I mean, we caught fish all day, but

I mean, I don't think I realized, like,

a good guide makes it look easy. Right? So, like, I mean, pulled into a spot and just started hammering and fish, and I was like, oh, cool. This is...

I guess yeah. I guess this is bass fishing in Phoenix school. Yeah. Yeah. And the reality is we're like, just struggling a lot of times. If it's not warm and sunny out? Yeah. It's one times brutal out here, but on a fly around at least... Yeah. Yeah.

So and you you brought up Casey Badger. Like, that was kind of the first

glimpse when Redding did that video. I don't what was that? Like, maybe nine, ten years ago? Or... Yeah. Yeah. Had to been summer right around then. Yeah yeah. That really put a shine on the

on the cart fishing in Phoenix.

Yeah. I that was

yeah. I can still picture, like, the beast starting of that video and being, like, what the hell?

Now when you... All that, did you know those spots were, like, oh, my god, That's that shopping mall And like, some of them... Yeah. Like, some of them, I always try and, like, if I see a picture. I was trying like, guess where it is, so I was... I know some of them were, like, under a... It was under the highway. And I was like, holy, we shit how hell they get under there? Like, I was surprised. Like, how did you guys do that?

Like the logistics.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, even with Roam, the logistics of a, driving way out there to that lake. It's just like gives me anxiety thinking about it. I will say I do is now that I sit and think about. I do remember I think his... I think we got a flat tire

just like, boat trailer blew out on the way home or something? Like, it was adventure. It was?

Oh, man. I wasn't touchy?

I don't know. Was it real... No. Yeah I wonder. Because I remember he used to guide this lake called apache lake, and it's fucking brutal going in. There's only two ways in and they're both dirt roads. And...

No. I mean, it was... I didn't... My, like,

radar of, like, I'm, you know, I didn't hear, like, Ban jo or anything. Know what I mean? I was not, like,

I I don't remember thinking I may never get out of here alive.

I you remember being stuck on a major freeway with a flat tire on a boat trailer beam like,

Oh that sucks. You know? Yeah. Like, yeah. Good thing I'm staying in the track.

Yeah. It's never fun. No No.

Especially if you know what you're like, oh. This is this has happened to me and

yeah. I'm so glad. I don't have to deal with this.

Shoot.

But, yeah. No. I I don't know. It was it was cool, though. I mean, whatever it was. It was like, it was

not what I expected. And then I know we went... I went wade fishing for a day on the Salt River.

I. Yeah. I did that. And that was kinda cool.

Yeah. That's an interesting place too. Yeah...

Yeah. Places Weird... I don't even really go over there, but

it's definitely one of our goals for guiding to get a guide set up on that river because it's...

Very popular.

Yeah. Yeah.

So so you... I mean, gosh, You only imply fishing for, like, nine years. She said ten years? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So Yeah. When were you like...

Wow. I I really wanna be a fly fishing guide.

So I guess lead...

I was doing wild,

and I was in New Mexico, and I can remember having the moment.

We were driving from a

Farming, like San Juan area, and we were heading to Albuquerque.

And I had been away from home for, like,

God who knows probably a month at that point, and I was just, like, so fed up with the job and just

just fed up with it. Yeah. I earned home my buddy I was like, dude. I should just try guiding and phoenix. I was like, nobody does it there.

Like, I I know where the fish are. I know how to catch them. I just have to, like,

teach myself how to teach somebody else, you know? Yeah.

So I I remembered, like, starting to build the website at that point and then like, I think that following year. I just...

Quit and didn't come back the next year and just

started guiding. I never wrote a business plan down or anything like that. I just kinda like, got everything I needed. Got my permits. Got the insurance and was just like, it's just wait see what happened

so great many great things have been started that way. And, yeah. I know, also many lives have been ruined that way. So... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't... I'm not a business

operator or anything. I had no prior experience to it. I was just like... Besides doing yard work, and I was a little kid. That's about it.

That's interesting though because, I mean,

basically,

I mean, Phoenix is one of those cities where,

I kinda like, it's kinda like San Francisco in the sense of, like,

a lot of people that fish come there for business

or other things. Right? And if you can capitalize

on that.

Yeah. You will have a steady stream of business. You know? I mean, how many conventions are in Phoenix? You know? And, like, Yeah.

And that's, like, as I'm... This is our fourth year. So I was I'm like, getting into it. I'm like,

I, like, I don't try and target the local guys. I'd rather just, like, help them because they can go out and fish whenever. So, like, it changes

my

advertising or whatever to, like, Yeah traveling here because I know that's that's my audience to people traveling here. We don't get destination, fisher guys are, like, they I heard Phoenix is a place to fit.

I that's never happened.

Yeah.

Well there is a byproduct.

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's an interesting thing because I've had George Rave on the show before in George,

you know, he said something to me like, with Lost Coast outfitters in this city. He's, like, people come here with an afternoon

or at most a day. Yeah. And they don't wanna travel

overnight to the a cloud or something Yeah. You know,

blue ribbon trout fisher that's three to six hours away. They wanna

fish and get on a plane or be it dinner and, you know, figuring out how fish within the city limits is Yeah. Really.

The... Where the business is so to say.

Yeah. For sure. And, yeah. That's how I kinda... I'll try and like, I tell everybody like you come through, just bring your fly around next time, you can fish these spots. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the battle with the canals are just like,

finding the fish and staying where the fish are and just, like, following them around And... Yeah.

And so, like, right now, they're doing a

the canal cleanup, they kinda of are wrapping it up, but

they'll literally, like, herd all the fish into a net move them to a... Who knows where, like, miles away in a different part of the canal. And then they, like, drain all the water and clean everything.

Wow sometimes but the fish back, sometimes they don't, and then that you're just, like, relying on the fish she kinda

playing back else. Yeah. I'm back down in like.

So, I mean, that's interesting. So I mean, to back up, like... So you have break down the analysis system and in give me the elevator pitch on when when we talk about a analysis them for our listeners. What are we talking about?

So like, man, way back in the day, we had a... The native American tribes called the H Come that were they lived down here in the valley. And they had a

crazy canal system how they, like, irr all their crops down here.

So when the settlers started moving in, we kinda came and just kinda

made our own

canal systems, but we kinda to improve what they already had.

And they were just running canals off of, like, the Salt River, the He River

and just kind of working them all throughout the Valley.

So now we have

Salt River projects. They run the Salt River chains, which you're, like,

man they fled out from a Eastern Arizona, and they run all the way down into Roosevelt Lake,

then Apache lake then Canyon and then Sag,

and then to the Salt River, where like, you a fish. Yeah. And then that kind of flows down into the canals and kind of starts the whole canal system.

And you could take those canals all the way from the Salt River all the way to Glendale Stadium on the west side of Phoenix. Like it's just... Wow.

Crazy the hundred and fifty miles of just canals.

So that's the... That would be, like, the Arizona, and then there's the grand canal, and then there's a bunch of smaller canal, some are private, some you can't even fish that are just, like,

just

it's like,

just guys that are have the sail on the canal that just can, like, ship the water down to their land pretty much. Wow. You got the C

canal, Central Arizona project,

and that one taps off on a the Colorado River and H,

and then it flows to

Lake Alamo,

and then it hits Lake pleasant and Lake pleasant was a

that was the lake in that loo video we did where we were catching the car. Yeah. So like clear full of zebra mussels. So it's just like,

jin clear all the time. That places a lot of fun, but wow. That can flows all the way down to central Arizona and just dumps off there. It's so

they have a lot of water going through Phoenix. And that's interesting. I had no idea that it was, you know, the canal system date back dates back to the Native of American tribes. That's really interesting. Yeah. That's always something I try and tell people because you'll find... I found pieces of pottery out there along. Canal, like, broken up ones and also like man, that's crazy. It's just like,

our international airport is probably built on top of a lot of the rooms there because there's a

H come museum right next to the airport. And it's like, one of their main...

Where they're, like, main center of town was. So it's... Oh, wow. That's interesting. Yeah. It's crazy.

There's still a lot of them that are just, like the rooms of them that you can go and check out, but That's really a lot of history. Yeah. So with the canals,

you know, for our listeners, they're basically

cemented

kinda channel rivers. Correct? Yeah. Because you got water moving through them. There's current. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not... It's never stagnant. It's always running,

they're real fiberglass,

Like,

they're concrete, but they have, like, fiberglass

mixed into it, So there's, like,

jin hooks of fiberglass glass sticking out and like, it's like coral. It's honestly

our own thing of coral.

It's not a... You don't usually get snagged up on it, but it's definitely like... Yeah. It's nasty, cheese grater concrete, like, you would fall.

Yeah.

They have, like,

they have almost like, a dam every...

I don't even know if it's are calculated

amount of distance, but they just had, like, these big dams they kinda, like, block off sections of them. Yeah.

They have gates where they can control the flows.

They have ladders or stairs that are... They're probably about a hundred feet

on both sides and they alternate, like, every hundred feet. Okay.

And that's like how we get down to land the fish Yeah we can like. Because otherwise, we would need, like, a job probably ten foot handle to handle.

Well, because the pictures I've seen, like, you're not scaling down the side of those things. No. I again. That she's greater just gnarly.

Yeah. Yeah. They're... We we have to walk them to the stairs we hook them. The fish is kinda like what hell is going on. Like, does it, like, a couple runs, then we start walking them to the stairs.

And then they... That's when they start fighting and they start, like, realizing what's going on, and then they start making all their runs and stuff like that. But oh, wow. We we we hook them and we walk to the stairs.

That's very amazing. Like, alright. Let's walk them over here now. Sometimes you can reach down and land them. Mh. But I usually gotta walk now. So... We've all got my good at

scaling down these sketchy stairs. People say them on there. You're gonna go down that. Like, oh, yeah, that's alright. Oh, yeah. No. This is the spot I wanted to go. Yeah. Yeah.

So...

And when you talk about the fish, what type of fish are we talking about. If we're in the canals, we're usually chasing grass carp.

There are common carp in there, there's everything and there's

one a game and fish bio just told me he's seen a alligator da in there. So their... Everything is in that canal system.

But we're usually targeting the grass carp white emerge they call them. Yeah. And those are all stocked in by

we'll speak for Sr, but a Salt River project, they'll... They stock those fish. They're federally protected. Like, you can catch you them, but you have to like, immediately put them back. Wow

because they're in there just they're they're herb rewards, they're in there just to clean the water pretty much so they they don't have to use herbicides. Oh, they're employees.

Yeah... They're city workers. They're the city workers

without the benefits or anything.

And they get get stuck with Hooks.

So a grass carp, what's what's the average? I mean, for the listeners, a grass kart because we don't have a ton of those. I mean, they're in California, but most of the guys that... Unless be real. It's pretty small group of them that target carp out here. They're efficient for the common cart.

Yes.

What what is the difference between, say the common carpet and a grass cart?

The way I always kind of explain them. The grass or silver,

they're usually longer, like, our record for the catch your at least one is

It was a fifty two inches long. Wow. And it weighed, like, sixty one pounds.

So they get ginormous.

Yeah. A real long,

kinda, like a the goodyear year limp almost and then they have a smaller do soften fin. That's kinda, like squared. Mh. And, they don't have whisk on their mouth.

Their mouth is more like, in front of their face versus on the bottom like her comment. Gotcha. And there eyes are more, like, on the broad side of their head. So they're, like,

if you're walking along, they're like, staring right at you They kinda hang more in the water column, they're not really bottom feeding. Gotcha and

they're

Yeah. I don't know. There there's something crazy

versus, like, the common car common carpet, like, very wary kind of, not the thick grass car aren't, But the

common carpet there just, you know, big sucker lips on the bottom. Of have huge coarse thin, big gold boys.

They also come in koi. They got mirror carb,

fan tail carb. I'm sure there's some other weird ones out there. But...

Yeah. We... In the lakes sweet, we'll target the the common carbs. We don't have the grass carpet any of the lakes. Look gotcha.

So

you got the canals, and that's basically

kinda how how, you know, in the elevator

spiel. How are guys

fishing the canals.

It's usually

drag and drop. A lot of guys do.

I've been doing this, like, my swinging technique that I can start and found out, like, two years ago.

And it's... So some guys have kind of heard of that and they're trying, like, their own ways to do it and stuff. So that's interesting just seeing, like, different ideas of that because as far as I knew nobody was

really intentionally swinging for them. They might have caught them, like, dead drifting something, but... Gotcha.

To go out and, like, throw fly

halfway in the water and let it, like, literally swing and let that fish nail it while swinging has been like,

it a really fun way to fish warm, and it's pretty active, and it moves a lot of fish, and it's a lot of fun to watch.

And that's somewhat of a reaction bite kinda? Yeah. Yeah. It is.

We've been...

We've been trying to figure out what it is. It the fly even, like, imitate. And last year, we noticed some kind of chasing blue gill around. Okay. So we've been kinda dabbling with, like, more blue gill flies. Yeah.

But, yeah. It's it's

it's almost like,

kinda always explain it like, like, bomber jets, just like, how they fly up in the water or in the sky and they, like, get right behind their target, like, in a movie or something like that. Yeah. You'll be swinging that streamer.

And you'll just see, like, three grass carp just like, pop up right behind it, just like, swim behind it trying to, like, they're they're like, they're big fish. They're not made. They're not, like, a trial where they have that slime on them You know. So they're, like,

struggling to turn and, like, get this fly.

And, like, I'll stick my arm out and I call it feeding them, and I just, like, give them a couple extra inches of that slack lined to fall back, and then they just, like, grab the fly real quick. And then you're just off the races, but It's usually in, like, faster water, so it's a lot more, like, fighting the fish because they're just, like... It... I like to do that when the water's is all blown out super high because it just moves fish and you can Yeah.

Almost blind fish form. Because usually, we're

site fishing all of them. We have to watch them, like, eat that fly. So we know one to sit because they're not, like,

they're not super aggressive, like, a bass. They don't, like, grab the fly and just take off with it. They like, god. They like, kiss that thing. They lick it. They do everything like, what they did sometimes

Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy.

And and you do, you know, most of it, no matter what type of fishing you're do. It is a visual eat. Correct? Yeah. Can you see it. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Always. And then we get... We'll do, like, tri flies,

and that's the same thing. It's like, smack the water. You gotta hit them right in the head with that thing or they, like, they don't find it, and they don't go out of their ways to get the fly either. So it's like,

super accurate cast. I'm always like, hey, practice. Your accuracy before you get out here. Display Yeah. Work on it. Yeah.

And then, like, even then they'll, like, if you miss off to the side of their face, they're so big

that they try and, like, do a u turn and it ends up being, like, a

five foot turning radius, they can't find the fly again because they're just like. We're talk work.

Yeah. It's it's silly. It's really funny a lot of the times.

Now... So you've kinda... You know, as you're doing all this stuff is you're you're figuring this out, like,

I mean, with the video with Casey,

like,

there was... So Casey left town pretty quickly after that video, I think. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty Yeah. So you're kinda left to figure this all out on your own. Am I You know, I mean, I'm sure there's a small cult to dudes, but, like, you're figuring techniques, flies, like, you know, there's a whole lot of,

you know, classic literature on the grass cart that you can reference

with the fly rods. So

I mean, have you had to develop flies and all sorts of different stuff?

Yeah. Pretty much every kind of car fly I use is something that I've kinda of made up.

We had many many chiefs that lives out here. And he was kinda doing

on the ponds and stuff like that, and he actually made that sliding called the Chi berry. So, like, we had, like... We had him around to trying to like, help guide us and stuff. Yeah the canal. That's all, like,

he... I don't even think he really even fishes their canals even to stay. So it's all, like, all that was all

learning new stuff for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. So all my fly is

I've... Yeah. They're all usually chart truths or have chart truth in them for sure. And is a visual, like, so they can see it.

I think so, and it helps us see it most gotcha. Gotcha. But they're always like... I know that I I have a few clients that have kind of, like,

named my flies that I've used for them just like, oh there this time, but make them, you know. Yeah. And they'll kinda, like, do variants on it and stuff, so it's it's interesting to, like, see that they'll use, like,

a white versus archer, and they still catch fish.

Gotcha.

Right. Yeah. Most of them are all... All my card flies. I definitely tie a lot of them are, like, the lake ones are kinda just like dragonfly fly N for the most part. Yeah.

Every now and then they chase streamers around at the lakes.

The common car will, but for the most part you. We're just doing, like, little dragonfly fly stuff like that. Gotcha.

So the lake fishing... Yeah, I mean, if you... If anyone follows you or your website, they'll notice you have a a, basically a flat boat as well.

Yeah.

At what point

did the lakes become

a thing and kinda what are the lakes?

Yeah. So

it's an interesting story. I I went I went fishing in Oahu, Hawaii with the polar, Jeremy.

Yeah. And,

that kinda like, set the tone for it. We were out on his little skin and we're out on the flats. The little pancake flats just looking for these bone fish,

and I was like, I was like, this is, like, the most one can have on a boat pretty much. Yeah. And

so that kinda of, like, set the tone for it.

And then when I got back here, I just start nobody has, like, a true flat boat out here really, but I know... No

or a skit, I should say.

So I just started looking around for, like,

john boat because that was... That's all I knew at that point.

I'm trying to think packing. And then we got the job boat.

I think I ruined that boat dragging it around to the lake so much around here, like, the wash roads and everything.

And then I got my new... My little tracker boat

and just totally built it out to fish how we fish around here pretty much.

So did the... Did... Was it... You bought the boat and you just were like, I'm gonna figure this out? Or was there any history

prior to that?

There was no history prior. I'm trying to think...

I think I

the timeline, I think I a issue with Jeremy, and then I was working in

Farming, New Mexico and we were up on a fire once looking down

at a Navajo Lake, the lake that kinda of feeds into the San juan. Yeah.

And I remember seeing a was ton of carp down there. I think I saw have a video just, like,

this huge flat of just carp tailing everywhere and I was like. I think I had heard about, like, people doing it like that

what's it called car, I think is the deal. Yeah. Yeah. R. He's gotta be doing it. Yeah Yeah. So I had seen that. And I was like, oh, man. I could... We I could totally do that here. So, like, went out on my my little pontoon, my little kicker boat. Yeah. And it was pulled around on those, And then I was like, man, I gotta get, like, a little skit down here and just come back here. Now how far are those lakes from Phoenix

that you're fishing?

They're only, like,

lake pleasant is maybe

forty five minutes from Sky harbor airport and

Bar maybe, like, a hour and a half. Gotcha. Just an hour.

So

Yeah. Right there.

Yeah. Yeah. Those are the tuning main ones

usually we go to bartlett most of the time. But, yeah.

And that is... So that is if someone... If you're going out there, I mean, is that kinda,

I would imagine at this state of the game? Or are you spending more time on the lakes or the canals?

So I just finished up, like, all my guide reports for the year and everything. So for last year, and I was kinda of blown away by how many were actually on the canals. Yeah. And like, that's definitely

our most popular trip.

I like doing the flat strips personally because it's so much cooler, But... Yeah. But now the, like, easy if you're in. Yeah. I mean, that's it's so convenient. Yeah. Yeah. Then I do three hour trips on those are my half day. So it's like,

it's cheap. People can just, like,

come do it real quick and then get back out and do it on their own or go to their next meeting or just get on with life pretty much. Yeah. So on the lake camera man. What's the lake season?

It's usually

spring, summer fall

winter wintertime.

They just kinda went deep. I kinda noticed, like, the white ass and stuff going deep,

just last month, really, and now they're kinda just, like,

Gotcha. It's not fun. Not fun anymore to fish for I'm on a fly out. They're just, like, thirty feet and hanging down there. Yeah.

Yeah. The bass aren't really fishing yet.

The car are still down low. We have, like,

we kinda have runoff going. So everything's real dirty and involved just like, blown out, but... Gotcha.

Yeah. So usually, about here probably

hopefully, the end of February kinda early March will start picking up on everything.

Gotcha. So you talk about white bass and regular bass? What other ba species do you have in those legs?

A pleasant has a it's got white bass, wipers,

striped bass,

that's really the bass and large mouth in there.

Bartlett has a... Just pretty much large mouth. They say they're small mouth in there, but I've never seen one. Gotcha.

So usually, just large mouth. They're kind of our primary one. It's

it's a lot to chase the the stripe and the large masses are kinda just, like,

two different bodies of water. So we kinda just spoke someone one really. Gotcha.

Yeah. No... My experience with stripe and lakes is that is a hard thing to do.

Yeah. That's like one of my... Like, what I like to do. I wouldn't take somebody guiding.

Yeah. It's usually pretty slow unless it's on fire then it's good, But... Yeah. That's like anything. So when you go out for a day on the lakes, you're going out and essentially a a sci with pulling platform. Are you kinda mixing it up with the bath and the carp, or are you pretty focused on pulling the flats?

It really depends on

the carp... There's a lot of guys that don't mind fishing for carb still, so it's like

Some of them wanna just catch bass, but also... My bow has the trolling motor and everything on it for bass fishing. Mh.

So usually, it's... I just leave it up to them.

If they wanna do the carp, then it's usually

Yeah. We go just all the way up rivers as far as we can and just decide... Get on little flats and just start pulling around or using the trolling motor,

and we're just looking for tails pretty much at that point just super skinny water.

How did you learn how to pull? Because that's not a Yeah that how to kill many of us are born with? Yeah. I tried to get Jeremy to teach me he never did, but it was like,

and then my first bowl was a sixteen foot seed n So it was like, a mod v. Oh, not like, a flat box. So I learned on that with

S,

what's the white one? It's, like, the P... No. It's not Pvc, the fiberglass one. So it's super heavy. Yeah. I have no idea.

Not my world.

Yeah. So I was out there the super heavy pulling

the push pull and trying to do this and my cousin built me a aluminum platform for the back of the boat and everything.

Yeah. I wasn't very good at that boat, and then I got my little boat, which is, like, flat bottom. Yeah. And I got a carbon push pull, and I was like, oh, man. Now I can, like kinda do it. So I just

I just taught myself. I would be interested to see me on, like, an actual pulling sci,

like, down in the flat... A real flat and see how I do it.

Yeah have no idea. Yeah. You know, that's funny because it's... You've either learning in a really hard environment and you're gonna shine or you're, like, oh, man.

I'd

Yeah. I got no business doing this. Yeah. But, yeah. I mean, I... Sometimes I'm like, wow. I'm like, actually, like, navigating through these sticks and stuff like that. And other times I'm, like,

wrapping the boat around a tree and breaking rods and

being boat up scratching it all down the side. Didn't did you even... Did you watch, like, Youtube videos or anything like that or were you just like,

let let experience be my teacher? I might have watched, like, one. I remember watching some video on it, but, yeah, most of it was just like, getting up there and, like,

pushing the pole on my body and just, like, seeing how it turned the bow and just like.

Yeah. If it's windy out though, like, I can't do it. I'm on the trolling one. I use a trolling motor a lot. Don't be fooled. Yeah. Yeah. No. I would too. If Had to patrol... I I think even flat guides are figuring out the trolling motor. So... Comment man. Yeah. Yeah. That's game changer.

Now I I know like, I've

I've owned skips like that before in the past, and I'm never much of a polar. I usually just kinda ruin them, but... Yeah.

Do your fish sp with the trolling motor?

Not really. And my guys have asked me, like, because it's a aluminum John both, they're like, isn't your whole slap like, scare everything, and I think god we get, like, I get within, like, five feet of those fish usually. Just like, just dab it on their head, you know, and they don't really see the mind

for sure. Like, you do sp some, you'll go through and not know they're there and hit a twig and everything just erupt and you're like, alright, Moving on. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, it's pretty...

They're not they're not terribly spooky because I don't think they're used to people

chasing them on a boat like Yeah. If

Shot with the an arrow. That was my next question do.

Do you have a lot of bow hunting pressure back up in those flats?

I... I've... Again, Not really. No. I've seen a couple guys both for Yeah. With, like, Roosevelt Lake seems to have more most people.

And, yeah. They have, like, the huge, like, lifeguard tower on, like, the top of their boat. Just like no. There's not... In my experience, there's awesome that kills a a carb spot like a dude rolling through there with a buckle.

Oh, it's great. And at nighttime. We'll see him because we'll go stripe for fishing at night. Just like mean buttons and drop anchovies. Yeah. And, yep. They'll go in the, like a covid and just fly that thing up. You can just see, like, the glow of the cove. Oh, yeah. Just hear the both

just like... Yeah. You're like not places get fish for a while.

Yeah. And that's probably why when you go back there at daytime, but there's nothing not car to be found. Yeah. They learn. They look.

Yeah. Yeah. They're smart. Yeah.

Interesting.

So with the lake stuff, it is... I mean, you ever see anyone else out there car fishing?

I mean, has it taken off at all?

I don't think

I don't think I ever have. I don't think I've ever seen anybody on a boat doing it? Definitely no. Because even like,

even bass fishing, like, there's I have one other buddy that fishes off a boat

with the fly rod for bass and, like,

I'm... There might be some other guys out there, but he's the only one that I've ever seen, and I remember seeing him out there and being, like,

No way. Like, what is that guy.

It was like guy. Yeah. He had, like, a stealth craft, like, a their little skit. Yeah. No. No platform on or anything, but he just bass and I was, like, just like, blown away to see somebody casting a fire rod out there other than me.

That's... Usually, it's people just see me and they're like, what the hell like I doing.

That's... I mean,

that's interesting. Is there is there conventional bass anglers out there? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Yeah. Those guys everywhere.

Yeah. And that's that's kinda what I thought. But none of them...

I mean, they must look at you like, you're a freaking weirdo when you pull up.

I think so. I think a lot of them. Like, every now and then you'll hear a guy, like, only, yeah, I do it. It's they're if they're, like, on top, like, pushing top on around, but Yeah. Like, I'm always out there with the fly, so I'm sure.

I get weird life. I've heard people being just saying so if, you know, noise kinda like, travels on the water. And oh, yeah. For sure.

A lot of people don't know that.

I like, oh, my god, he has a fly rod out here. Oh he's catching bass with.

But like blown away. That's interesting. Yeah and again. I I guess I asked because it's, you know, in that environment like, there are people, a lot of, you know, we we say oh, being a fly fishing guy in Phoenix, Arizona, that's weird. But, like, there's a lot of people that fish in Phoenix, Arizona. They just fish with gear and for bass and stuff like that. So Yeah. Yeah. We have we have tackle shops. We have so many tackle shops and, like,

we have Or and az fly shop for fly shops and, like, that's it.

Like... It's... But then they're sports men's, Cab capella, Bass Pro, be like, so many different gear fishing stores. It's crazy.

Huge boats see.

Everybody has these crazy boats out here. It's... Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing that you haven't that there hasn't been, like... I guess there there is. Because I mean, hey, we're in... We're talking about it. But, like, yeah. Conversion or at least as we call fly curious people that are, like, kinda coming over. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. I think it's just like,

the ease of gear fishing for bass is like,

I mean, I...

Usually, fly rods are, like, a handicap for me with fly fishing because it's just like. You can't compare to those stop water.

You can't compare to, like, a big crazy.

Crank bait that just... Oh, yeah. Good. What fish want one... Yeah. The they're making all these rattle noises and stuff like that. But... Yeah. I think when people see it fishing good and it's like, you're ripping a top of big poppers through their as fast you can and ambassador just hammering it or, like,

Okay. It looks like a a little bit of fun. And then I've also heard being, like, oh, that looks like way too much work, and I'm just, like, yeah it's more porting so much fun. Yeah. No. I... Those are the same, you know, responses that I get from... You know, a lot of the ba guys out here. They're either very curious that they're like,

that's a lot work. So... And and everyone from Phoenix, they're all transplants. They're usually from, like, we use a lot of snow birds so, like, Midwest people. So they're kinda stuck in their ways. Gotcha. And I think that's a lot of, like,

they hear me catching carp and they're, like, what the hell is wrong with you they why. Yeah.

That is so far down their list of games tests that it's not even funny. I've had people, like, just randomly, like, text me, like, hate messages almost about it. Just, like,

why are you doing that? Stupid persona bitch Like,

for they're for to kill them and leave on like?

Just being like, what the hell is going on?

He could like. I can't believe you charge money to catch cart.

Just completely insulting there. Yeah. Tires old diligence. Yeah.

That's fine but they just tried it. So much fun. God. So much fun. Oh, yeah. No. I mean, think in the fly fishing world, that's fairly well established as like, a viable game and I think, you know, most people that have tried carp fishing.

Have this, like, oh, yeah. I don't do that because it's really hard. I mentality. It's not, like,

oak, kart fishing, you know, for the birds or lame or they're dirty fish. They're like, not, man. That shit's too hard. I wanna go catch fish.

Yeah. And I can't remember having, like, when I first started trying to skin my how do you do this? Like, trying to fish him for, like, a a trial. Yeah. Yeah. And then hitting that learning curve and you're like.

Oh, oh okay. That's why you guys are down there. That's why you're sipping on the top and yeah. Neck in the dots, but

even even it's always something new with these fish. I feel like. I feel like our fishing is never

consistent. Like, we'll have one... Last year, I was throwing dry flies

on a, this particular chunk of canal just like,

every week just having super good success, and now, like, there's not a single fish in that stretch of to canal, and I can't... I don't know where they're at I don't know where they went, and it's just like, man.

Well, it's interesting when you were talking at the beginning.

About what they're doing right now with cage up the fish, draining and all that stuff. I mean, that's... Yeah. That's just like a normal, you know, our trout reverse, like,

in a normal winter. They blow out, shit gets moved around fish get moved around, and you gotta figure it out again in the spring. You know what What I mean? Yeah. I never ever even thought of it like that. Yeah I, that's a normal cycle of a of a river. Yeah. Know Yeah. No. Yeah.

So... Yeah. It's a good point to look at on it a good way. Yeah.

So the other thing you guys have around there is,

I know when I was out there. You have, you do have some natural rivers.

Yeah. Like, the Ver River, like the natural and Scenic River.

It's not damned up. The first dam of it is a right above bartlett,

and it's called horseshoe dam, but

yeah. That Birdie river is, like, a pristine... I mean, Wouldn't... If we call it the dirty birdie, but it's the has in it has all kinds of, like, the natural fish in it. Wow. I mean, even the lower Salt River, it's pretty

it's damned up, but it's still pretty, like,

Salt River is really pretty, and there's a ton of life in it.

And it's it's kind of amazing that it's right there in the middle of the Desert. But... Yeah. No. The time I fished it. I mean, it was it was a cool river. Yeah. It's usually nice and clear and, like, you're just, like,

maze god, I've seen, like, six pound bass. Just cruising around in that thing. Just... Yeah. Thirty pound carb, giant suckers. I think... I got

it might be the world record for the Sn sucker comes out of there. I think I think you're correct. I remember Matt tell me shot Matt Collins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I Casey had it for a while.

And then Alex Alex Lu got it last year.

What what was it? What is the world record for the... I think it's like, twenty five or twenty six and a quarter or something like that? Wow. Twenty six inches or something like that? That's insane.

Those fish are really cool and they're they're old. They're like, they're native,

they get town. I've seen those things like, bend up a ten way and just, like, run like crazy.

Yeah. And those are, you know, out here, a lot of our listeners think of a sucker and they're like this. But there's a little different breed out where you guys are tell... Talk a little bit about those, because that's interesting.

I don't know. I don't even know, like, their scientific name, but their their appearance is like,

They looked a lot like our suckers, but they're not our suckers.

Yeah. They're they're have... When they're, like, all spun up, they have real gold valley and like, a dark brown top and they have like crazy fins.

They hang down low. They're... Yeah. They're just, like, normal little suckers are always school up.

Their lips kinda look like carp, though. They're kinda have bottom lips on them I don't think they have the blisters on them or anything like that. No. But

No

Yeah. They fight though. Like, our suckers out here, like, you get one and you're like, oh, oh, you know? Oh, yeah. No Ours are, like,

get out of here. Like, what is that in my face just run. God that thing bent that ten way so much. I was just, like, holy crap. Like. What did you catch? Wow... You're a ten weight for those things.

I had... I think I had my eight weight, but he had his ten weight. And... Yeah. Yeah. It was crazy. It

Yeah. It would have done some damage so, like, a five weight for sure. Oh, wow. Yeah. And now how are you guys fishing for those? Because they're all by catch out here. You know, you're N and for trout.

You catch that bug lip. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

I I think they're just dropping... They're either N form or they sight fish form because that river, like, about a month ago. It only flows when everybody finishes it at, like, eight Cf.

Oh, okay. Gotcha. Gotcha, yeah. So I think it's a lot of sight fishing.

The one I hooked one years ago and it was I was site fishing for it. But, yeah. That's right. Cool. And they stocked they stocked trial in there during this time of year. So

a lot of the older

snow bird guys really like that area because it's easily accessible. It's right there. And yeah. It that place. That's usually, like,

lines of people at that place. I think that's why I don't really go there too much. That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. With the... Yeah. Again, with the boat you can get back there. Where nobody can get and you're all secluded. It's... Yeah That's cool.

Gotcha. That

secluded fishing. Yeah. Well, I mean, it sounds like you got quite a bit of it. So... Yeah. Know Yeah. Surprisingly.

Well, that's cool, man. That sounds like... I mean, when you talk about fisheries, it sounds like the diversity is pretty good considering what most people's

interpretation of Phoenix Area arizona would be. Yeah. I have just say we're I'm just a product of my environment. I got tired of driving hours for... We got... We have giant carp and

I've seen some gnarly rounds up here, but

but you gotta work for him so much more work than just walking.

Yeah. Ten minutes like, now and catching a fish, it's double the size. Yeah. No. For sure. For most assistant.

Kinda how it happened. And then just exploring, finding everything that we got. What is the

you know, as as the canals, you say there's an alligator ga we... As we kinda wrap up what's what's the weirdest thing you've seen in the canals? Oh man.

Nothing crazy. My wife is always surprised that I haven't found dead body or anything, but there's a a lot of syringe syringe.

I've seen dog fights happen along the canal. I've seen

cars get broken into...

We peep people chasing us off of the canal. If you're, like, we have a lot of transient kinda setting up along the canals now. So they're, like, they see a camera and they think you're filming them and they like, freak out. But But. Yeah. That's nothing really crazy. We usually try and say in the nicer parts of town for sure. Yeah. No. That's that's a that's a good. That's a good thing. How this place is about my hey. This is really good fishing, but don't take anybody here. Yeah. This is not safe. Yeah. Yeah. What do what's the weirdest fish you've ever caught in the canal? Because I've seen some, you've posted some pictures of some, like, basically giant koi and all sorts of weird stuff.

Yeah.

Probably, like, a... I always think it's weird when you catch an Oscar, like the sick lids, like the

Yeah. They're people just throw in there. Oh yeah. A lot of that.

But, yeah. That's really.

Since we're always, like, sight fishing up, it's always, like kind of... You know what you're getting. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely like, I've

bear trap was just catching these big old tal hop out of there.

Like what the hell that doing in there.

You gotta imagine people just dump stuff in there. I would imagine.

Yeah. Like, their trash and stuff. There's been a few kids that are, like, unfortunately drowned in there. Oh, because they're not... They're not gated off or anything. So... Yeah.

It'll be interesting to see

I know some people one of the can canals all gated off.

Just based on people falling in and just that...

Yeah. There's been acts people driving into them accidents, and then... Yeah. There's a lot kinds of craziness.

Yeah.

Arizona is just or Phoenix is crazy though in itself. Yeah. Leave humans to it, and they'll ruin it. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Well, it's great, man. It's been great talking you and kinda we've been trying to make this happen for a while. So... Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I know we came out. We did the video with you Lou outdoors came out there. So if people wanna watch that different places different fish, different fish, different places

out there with you. I know Dom came out and came home being, like, what the hell that I just do.

Yeah. That was fun. That was a great day of fishing. Yeah. Yeah. I always refer people on my, You wanna know what we're doing and just watch this video?

Well, and it's awesome because Dom is a very traditional steel head fisherman and, like, swing flies and kinda...

He... He's he you know, he's a Delta fisherman and he's way the bass and stuff like that, but I think even

it surprised him what he was doing out there and watching you guys too. So...

Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. That's a that's a quick search away if anyone wants to see what's going on out there. But why don't you share with everyone where they can reach in all that type of stuff. Yeah. My website is a l o water guide dot com,

Instagram where little water guide,

and you can call or text me anytime,

website, information has all my contact information on it and everything like that.

Great. Great. And I imagine there's...

Gosh.

A lot of our listeners will at some point in their life fly into sky harbor and be in Phoenix, Arizona. So don't leave your fly rods at home. Yeah. Yeah. You can leave them... Yeah. Bring them, I got the gear too, but, yeah, You how I get you all land out and get you dialed in so you can go do it on your own every time you come back. Nice. Well, hey, Derek. I really appreciate you having a having a having a conversation coming on the show, and, hopefully our paths will cross in person someday. Yeah. Yeah. No okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. Alright, guys. Hey. This is Hogan Brown signing off. We'd like to thank our sponsors, Luna outdoors and sierra about a brewing, and we will catch you next time.

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