Big Chico Creek Fish Survey Results - FISHBIO, Inc.

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to, a remote podcast from the Barb life fishing podcast.

We're we're all called in, so we apologize in advance if the sound is a little off, but, we're we're still in quarantine stage. So

we got a fun episode today. We got

Mike and Tyler from Fish bio. How you guys doing?

So hanging in there.

Yeah. We're doing well. The ladies.

Isolating

working rather than fishing, but

can't complain.

Yeah. And and as we speak, there's stocks about California shutting down the recreational fishing, and in some places. That I have a feeling it might be in the entire state, but we'll see what we'll see what happens. Yeah. That's No, no.

That's gonna happen tomorrow Today is the ninth. Right? Miss today the ninth? No. Today's eighth. Eight. So eight today is April eighth.

Two it's like, two two fifteen Pm. I just wanna call out the dates because this weird ass timeline we're on this alternate universe.

Yeah. So they're tomorrow, I guess, the department of official wildlife. I believe is gonna make a determination with a special

I don't know. Jedi council meeting of some sort and let everybody let us peasants know if we can fish or not.

That's really.

That's that's my understanding. And I've been told that it's gonna be on a county by county basis. But this will all come to palace by the time anybody listens to this, so we'll we'll have to do another update. It's got... It's gonna be hard though to the police just that certain areas, you know, and then, like you shut things down and leave some stuff open and everybody flock to those areas that are open. You know, you're just, like, adding to adding to the problem. And they're they're giving us time right now to call it, not call in to email the

vision game and and so that the the board gets to see everybody's comments prior to the meeting happening tomorrow.

From what I've heard these these guys have already made their decision. Right? It's just kinda of due diligence, just allowing the public to to chime in if they won't, but,

from when I I've understand in the herbs or the Grapevine that they've already made a decision to

to shut things down

entirely. So hold don't I don't see. I was talking to a guy friend of mine yesterday

who, you know, has been fishing So just to

stay up with with current event and what's happening on the river, and he was telling me that, apparently, they already closed a bunch of boat ramps up to the Sacramento.

Mh.

But there there still are guides out with clients, which

you know, I I feel for the people who

rely on that as their only source income. But totally,

that... It shouldn't be happening right now.

And, yeah, you know, if if some people don't follow the suggestions you have to make the suggestion the rule, and it's good right for everybody. So... Right? Well, Ted.

Yeah, There is, you know, four those people that they're kind of in that situation where they still need to guide.

There are

several different government relief options, both federal and state that we covered

in a in a... A recording today, which I believe is gonna be episode one forty one,

and, we'll air on the the ninth, which is tomorrow on Thursday morning.

So by the time you get this one, one forty one of already been published, and you can find that in our archives.

K?

So without further... Without what's that one, Chad?

Well, I talked to a, a tax attorney,

that's actually a listener out of Ohio,

and

he he kinda walked us through what the options are for for folks that have that are, you know, independent contractors, I. E. Guides,

law owners

retail retail shop owners and and then, you know, even even people at own homes and things like that what you can do. Right. I've I've been looked trying to follow up on that stuff as it's changed though rapidly, but it... Apparently a lot of the banks aren't even accepting applications anymore because they've been flooded by so many already. There... And it sounds like it sounds like they're gonna come out with some more money to offer the

the Sba. It's an Sba. Loan, I think that's how I say Sba.

Mh. That loan, no is it's a federal loan, but it goes... Through... It's broker through your local bank. So Right. The banks are your correct, Nick and then they're not taking

applications

for non members. If you're still a member of your of the bank. They they... They're obligated to to take your app. So that's the only caveat that I would say to that. Gotcha.

Interesting. Cool.

Oh, yeah. To send new info for me.

Well well, the main reason for the podcast it is,

we...

Well, fish bio did a study on the big cheek of Creek, one of our local streams

that has special regulations and

Michael and Tyler, you're here to to talk about it and talk about what they found, and I... It's kinda... I'm kind of interested. I I was invited to go there that day and some fish counting with them, and, I got my wet feet on and got to dive into a cold creek and swim went with the fishes, and it it was a it was a fun experience. That a great time doing it. I had

a lot of doubt in the process of the fish county that was going on. So I'm glad we're doing this because I, I, I want Mike to clarify,

you know, what why we counted some of the holes twice when I was like hey, there... I saw every fish there. They were stan and fish. I saw him all there in that hole. There there was... Nope. We gotta do it again. What? What?

So, yeah. Without for to ado, Mike go ahead and,

introduce yourself and...

Well, first all, yeah. Thanks for having us on again, and, yeah. Thanks for your your help last summer. I'm hoping we can count on you again and,

assume we can we can pull this off

this year, this year as well.

But... Yeah. To about the Big Chico Creek Survey, it's just to to backtrack a little bit and provide a little bit of background.

Back in I relief was twenty thirteen

when...

Well, shortly after Fish bio in an office here in Chico,

we have this conversation that, you know, a lot of

are work and, you know, our are necessary working, our bread and butter kinda depends on monitoring in in river systems

that

is is either proactive or or mandatory, but it usually happens in river that are already very heavily modified or very impacted.

And

very little monitoring happens in in systems that are,

you know, merely

natural or or fairly fairly pristine,

and there aren't you know, there aren't a great many, especially not in the Central valley.

And and we were

considering trying to to do a a local study, you know, something to get involved with the local community and and to learn something contribute something about the Creek that many of us

cross every day going into and and from work.

And it also goes back to the, you know, Rainbow trout steel heads the morph or dichotomy that that we did an episode on,

a few months

ago or or at some point last year,

where Big Of Creek has rainbow trout. Those Rainbow trout could potentially be steel head,

which are

federally protected federally state protected.

Or even if they're resident rainbow trial, they could be the parents of future steel ahead.

So

we decided to to start monitoring

big chico creek within the boundaries of the Big Chico creek ecological reserve just a few miles outside Chico.

And

this is not a funded, you know, project for us. This is this is kind of our our summer release if you will, that's what we're looking for,

looking forward to every summer an opportunity to to get out and and spend some time on in in our local Creek.

And

we, you know, rotate staff as out. Usually, have we have one of our guys out there kinda

guiding leading the way or or running the show if you will.

But rely heavily on

volunteers and and support,

especially from the Big Chico creek ecological reserve, and then we fill the remaining slots with

volunteers such as your yourselves, Nick.

Or when we have student interns over the summer, you know, who we.

Punished by having to mount scales and sit behind the microscope

for a few months, this is kinda of a kind of the carrot it's like, oh. It if it works out, well, we we do have some field work coming out, and you you do get to go swim with the fish.

And we have that in the a couple other community rolling in volunteers that typically help us out.

And it's a great system to do that.

For for a number of reasons.

For one, that's it's fairly small.

So the survey that we do are their visual surveys. So observational surveys, we don't we don't touch fish. We don't catch fish We don't remove fish. We don't handle them.

So it's it's something that's

very non invasive, which is all always desirable especially with with sensitive species.

And, yeah, It's a very small creek with, you know, two, three people in the water swimming snorkeling.

You can con considerably count

just about all the fish that are in in the given habitat unit. So it's...

Based on the size of the Creek, the visibility that we have in the water water always very clear,

especially in late summer,

and the the number of the fish densities

that that we have come to expect are very conducive to to this visual surveys. So we'd we've done it four times now.

And, yeah, I hope to them to keep it going every summer into the future.

So what... You mentioned that,

you mentioned that it's the the stream is is conducive to the counting. What... Like, what would be an example of of of the local stream that that wouldn't be conducive for this type of system?

Well,

it could be it could not it could be not conducive because of the size of the system.

So if you, you know, if you think of the high flow section of the feather, for example, that has just has this huge cross section that you just... You can con

line up thirty people across the width to that river and and count every fish that you snorkel over.

It also has great visibility. You know, these these summers here and but Hill street always run crystal clear

during

during July, August, September when we do those surveys.

And

that's that's kinda crucial because in theater a year supposed to be able to at least have a chance at seeing every fish within a given habitat. So within a given run or a given pool or a given ripple.

And, you know, if you just to to highlight that well, maybe if you if you think of the Pit river. You know, there's tons of tons and tons of in there, but you can only see two feet in front of you. So again, if it's more than two feet deep, you can con conceivable

count every fish

that you see in a habitat unit.

Or another option is, you know, even though the Creek is small and and clear,

there could just be too many fish.

We have

conducted the same same methodology the same survey on beer be configure go, I believe it was in twenty fourteen.

And

what we found there is that the the methodology that we were using that historical

methodology.

If the numbers in deer could you typically kinda push push the limits of that methodology just because

if you have

a larger number of fish, you know, say twenty plus in a given habitat unit.

It just... They move fast. They they sc about. It's very if very difficult to to get consistent counts.

And to be to have confidence in the accounts that you are performing.

Now know, it works really well. If you got one two, five ten fish that you're counting and you can count those accurately.

And once those numbers get too high,

the the counts or the confidence about those counts,

just kinda of it falls apart. It it still produces a population estimate.

But the the intervals of your your confidence searches.

They're very, very broad.

So Deer Creek would be an example where, you know, we have a very comparable stream to Big Chico Creek. It's a little bit bigger,

the t density. Is just that much higher that, yeah. You're really pushing the boundaries of of what that methodology can do reliably.

What, I called again that what's the methodology that you guys use.

It it's a bounded count method, so method of bound counts, and and that's, I think what you were touching on earlier.

When we asked you last summer after you had completed snorkeling the unit

to get back in and do it again, and then do it again and then do it again.

And so, a, subset of the units that we snorkel,

we randomly select for multiple counts or those bounded counts. And

the way that works is you use snorkel or particular unit four times in a row

with a little bit of of a rest period in between,

And the assumption is that the number of fish in that unit doesn't change between those snorkel counts.

But the number of fish that you you actually see

that that can vary. And the way that that method works, it takes the the highest of those four counts

and the second highest to those four counts

and adds the difference to the highest count. So say, on, you know, your highest count is thirteen, your second highest is eleven, your actual estimate for the number of fish in that unit will be fifteen. Because

just by the by the nature of those different count... Different counts. There's a chance that that you are missing fish.

Right.

And just to to describe this one from my point of view, when I went down there, just, I guess to try to make it a little bit easier for people listening is you know, we got down to the creek,

these guys literally had a map, and and it was numbered. So they're using... When they say unit, it was an actual area. Right? Is that right, Michael? It's like, Yeah. So these are a r pull or it's a pool or it's

But it's it's usually an area where these fish are gonna be in, and that... That's what... Sometimes we would be going along to creek. We get to section forty one, and then forty two,

skip forty three, hit forty four. And we'd have to count forty four, you know, multiple times four times.

You explain that?

Yeah. No. That's exactly what is. So this whole survey

is is preceded by a very detailed habitat mapping effort, and, you know, we did that back in twenty thirteen and have just

verified it

for for accuracy every summer, every time we go out.

But within the

the ecological reserve we've literally gone through all of the creek

and classified it all and into habitat units. So run r pool at cascade and cascade, you you can't really snorkel because you can't too well and it's all, you know, bubbles and white butter.

But for all the other habitat category. So run r will pool,

we

have them all numbered, you know, there's somewhere two hundred and change or so habitat units within the reserve.

And

we

systematically goes go through and select every

depending on depending on the year and and the habitat type every, you know,

fourth or fifth run every fourth or fifth pool and same with R

to to snorkel, and the the advantage of that is

in systems like river systems where you would expect some type of gradient

you're capturing that gradient from, you know, top to bottom or bottom to top. If you were just to select your samples randomly.

There's a chance they all fall into the cluster at the, like, at the very top of your your survey creek or at the very bottom, and that may not be a representative for what you see across the whole stretch of river. So we're using the systematic approach where we... Where we sample every...

Or according to a a predetermined interval

these units. And then, again, a a sub sample of those

for each category.

We use for the... We be for the bounded counts to get get a measure of of

accuracy and also to you know, extrapolate to the the full number that's expected to be there based on those balance accounts.

Mh.

Is anybody have a question or wanna at?

Yeah might I do, but it might be a little early. I just wanna know what the results were.

Sadly... I wish I wish she would've been down there in a wet to watch with me count some of these fish. That would've have been. Yeah. Would've been fun to see. They make a wet suit that would fit me, but

Oh, you can...

You're you're tough up in August to go first swim to create... You don't need to wind... That's all their since don't, like, cold water.

And no. I'm I'm the same way. I've... Yeah. I had much rather snorkel and, like, eighty plus the degree cooperative than, you know,

buy this shirt. So...

So I I took wet through down there and and there was a kid that volunteered that was in a Swim trunks and a shirt. And

by... It wasn't even the end of the day. By the middle of the day, I remember you know, picking my head up and looking out over Adam them because we were side by side swimming up a a a small pool counting these fish and we'd pop up and, you know, give numbers and whatnot. But I remember getting up out of the water and looking at it them and his lifts were bright blue,

there was though there was so... I mean, the water... It was it was still really cold, and you could see,

Just to describe, like, to the listeners, you know, we would get into these pulled and it it you'd dropped down and it underneath the surface and you could see everything. You know, from one side of the bank to the other. It's a really small stream,

and it really clearwater water, so it was...

I was going back to kinda what Michael said. I I got a set after I was pulled account the whole again one time because I I know that

I know for a fact I went through that hole and I saw ten fish. And,

you know And I was like, there's no way that there's gonna be a different count, You know. But after going through the different

structures and the the different anatomy of these units,

it it started to make more sense as to why, you know, why that was structured the way it was.

So... Yeah. And you can't really do science and

willy nilly have a process. It's got it you guys stick to it no matter what.

Right.

So I I did look at the numbers

compared to, like, twenty eighteen to to twenty nineteen and and can we kinda talk about that because there were some some surprises there at least for me.

Yeah. Definitely.

So

just to,

I guess, the the brief summary is we're we're back to abundance levels

that are very comparable to what we saw prior to the drought in in twenty thirteen.

So within those,

what what was it exactly? I'm trying to remember what the

the length was.

But so within end the ecological reserve, I think it's four and a half mile. Mh.

Within the ecological reserve, I think our estimate was somewhere right around twenty five hundred,

Rainbow trout

in twenty nineteen,

I think twenty five seventy six was the exact estimate.

And that is very comparable till was the first time we did it in twenty thirteen, which was twenty five fifteen.

And twenty fourteen, we we saw a a a big dip in density that was kind of the

the first the year of drought impact, I think, on the creek, and then we we skipped a few years is because the water was so low, and so warm.

And

in twenty eighteen, when we started doing it again,

we saw a little bit of a bounce back, but it was still, you know, it's still quite a bit lower. I think the twenty eighteen estimate somewhere around eighteenth between eighteen and nineteen hundred fish.

And then... Yeah, In in twenty nineteen, now, we're back up to to pre drought abundant. And what's really interesting to me on this is, you know, we...

For work conduct similar surfing on on other rivers in the central valley.

And we've seen this similar pattern. We saw this big decrease, you know, during the drought and in abundance density.

And then within one, two years after in granted, that was know helped by the the very wet wearing in seventeen,

that seemed to make a big difference

for for these fish and providing suitable conditions for reproduction.

But eighteen nineteen, we saw these big

bounce back

from depressed numbers if they're in the draft to just about pre pre drought abundance levels, which is very encouraging.

And it's very encouraging to see this on a on a

natural system with a natural hydro graph,

you know, that doesn't have any

cold water storage

to rely on

or any, you know, any diversion or any any type of modified hydro grass. So this is

a small break,

example of of how

resilient these populations actually actually are,

in light of

drought challenges and and little water years. Is it safe to say that, like, a lot of those fish are one and two years old or no?

Probably, they're probably, you know, one to, yeah, one, two, three years old for the most part

And how there were there were a lot of small fish in there. I mean, that's the majority of what we counting were little little tiny fish. You know, every once in a while, we'd see when that looked like it was sixteen maybe seventeen

inches, but

a lot a lot of smaller fish in there. For sure. It would smaller be, like, six to twelve inches or

six to ten. Six to ten. Okay? Yeah. And so we... The way would we break them up

we break up by by the category for for the estimation. So one is, you know, smaller than a hundred and fifty millimeters, which is what is for or

six and six.

Yeah. Six inches, and then a hundred and fifty to three hundred, so six to twelve, and then larger than twelve inches or three hundred millimeters.

And the small ones the, you know, smaller than six inches is

I think where was that right around fourteen hundred or so fish of the twenty five hundred that we estimated. So, you know, more than half.

And then in contrast,

I think we had six

six, seven hundred or so

larger than twelve inches. But even if they're larger than twelve inches, they're

not much larger. So,

usually, we don't see any any big fish.

In this creek. And

while it is a, you know, it is

open to the public and open to fishing, I think even right now, maybe until tomorrow, we'll see what happens tomorrow.

But, yeah, for for people that go there, you know, there's

it's it's by no means a a destination or or a trophy.

It's kind of a, you know, a little local gem for people that are willing

to

risk science and for North mountain

Exactly. Exactly. And and and don't mind the the long hike down from the the gate to the ecological reserve, and then the the hike backup, which always seems twice as long.

Yeah. We're talking miles not yards.

Yes. Oh, definitely.

For a hike just case anybody talking about doing it this weekend or whatever. It's about thirty thirty minutes down and then an hour out, you know, because it's... So it is so steep.

That sounds But, yeah. That sounds about right. And it, you know, like, going back to here here creek definitely has bigger and and more efficient it and more worth your time. It's interesting though to hear

this study being done and the numbers going back into the

the drought? Because as Anglers, you know, I was talking to a lot of people, and they were all curious. Like, what's the with this impact? What's the drought and how it gonna impact our fisheries? Are these child treating is gonna suffer or are there or even the the did the child survive And just based on an

numbers and pressure, you know, we're were... I was getting feedback that, hey, these these fish survived, and and they're doing just fine.

And this is a a deer creek specifically,

So it's just cool to it was neat to be able to put that wet suit on and and get into the water and and see it first hand and and do that with you guys. So I've fun doing it and definitely would come back. So.

Well, if I can... If If I can make a couple pitches real quick, one of them, you know, for for listeners who are interested in what this creek look like looks like and and wanna

envision this.

For one, we we put out a little video, we put together a little video on this past survey. Well, and even on previous surveys

that people can find on the Fish bio website and can get to.

To, yeah, get some eyes on the creek and and be be able to better picture what this looks like.

And then

secondly, for people that, you know, do wanna head out, whether it be for for a hike or for the fishing, The main access is through the Big Chico Creek ecological reserve, which I believe public access remains open as of now.

But if people go, please take a minute and fill out the the self registration busier log that helps the reserve, you know, can keep track of people and and usage and and make their

make make it make their case for

for future funding allot, etcetera,

that often depends on on use numbers and visitor numbers. Yeah. So they can... They can act accordingly.

And then, yeah. Thirdly, if if there are some people that are really really interested in and working working hard for a day or two trek around and snorkeling and crawling up rifles.

Yeah. We always... We'd love to accommodate a couple volunteers

every summer. And, yeah. People can definitely get in touch. There's... If if anyone's interested in,

participating this year, assuming it is gonna happen.

So that's all corona dependent at this point, but we certainly plan on it.

Yeah. There's some part... Pro... Promising numbers come out in New York now, finally. So, hopefully, we're hitting the,

the inflection point. I hope,

anyway,

okay. Talk about if you can,

the

the

what what am I trying to say here. The nutrients in in in that particular creek, you know, in in relationship to,

you know, food availability, things like that that might, you know, help these these population densities

maybe pick up quicker than some other streams. And I'm and I'm talking, like, specifically about

the geological

conditions

for that particular waters shed that maybe make more nutrients than say other waters, like, the clouds a classic example of a nutrient with Rich waters shed.

We've talked. I think you and I am and Matt have talked about the relationship between, like, nutrients and

food availability and all that. Can you kinda get into that Or or have you guys

Do you have any insights on the geological stuff in that particular waters should?

You know, I don't really off the top of my head have any of the, you know, geo geological morph

or or

nutrient or water chemistry

numbers or analysis that I could rely on for that,

Tyler, can you

can you think of anything

that you're familiar with or that you may have heard on that?

We may have lost Tyler.

Oh.

Yeah. It sounds like it...

That's okay. But... Okay. So in general, can you kinda talk about the relationship between that and and and, like, just food food source

for folks supply of just

any waters shed really?

Yeah. No. So generally speaking, you know, just ultimately, what drives productivity is is is nutrient and availability. Right?

But it's...

And and some

systems,

some river systems are naturally predisposed to to a higher productivity just based on their based on their geology.

The the streams around here, and and that's including Big Chico Creek is actually not very nutrient rich.

And, again, the the contrasting example that you can make here

in

very simplified terms if is if you compare compare like Big Chico Creek, you say the Pit River. Right? The Pit River is a nutrient soup,

and that is is definitely reflected in the water Clarity.

A lot of these, you know, Sierra Nevada, foot hill cascade streams

run pretty low and clear during the summer in large part because they're fairly nutrient poor.

If you have nutrient rich waters, sometimes oftentimes you see increased all production,

lots and lots of dia toms that,

invert speed on and that, you know, cascade up to up the t chain or up the food chain.

And, see yeah, on big Chico Creek, for example, you don't you don't have a whole lot of that.

But then again, I think Chico State might be a a much better resource

for for looking up some of these.

Nutrient analyses for for local waters sheds.

But, yeah, These creek, you know, including Chico Creek, There's there's fish there for sure, but it's not it's not hugely productive.

And then we go ahead.

Go ahead, Chad.

Well, I think Matt was talking about, like,

the elevation and, on a gradient of a river. You're more likely to have bigger fish towards the bottom of the system, and I'm talking specifically about trout. Like,

the the the further down the system you go, gradient wise to a lower elevation to where the temperature is still conducive to that that speed, whatever that species as you're targeting,

let's say, trout.

There's just more... There's more opportunity for nutrients to get in the water

because of trips and things like this. Therefore, there's more bugs. Also, is that is that... Did I get that right? Mike. There's... Yeah. There's definitely a lot of that going on.

As, you know, as a waters shed

lengthen out, you know, you have more and more opportunities for side,

side channels and and inputs,

as the water gets bigger and bigger as it goes downstream. But it also

have to factor in the temperature too because as you go downstream, it tends to get warmer and during droughts. That's where

I think, you know, you you could rely on a lot of, like, colder head water

pools to act as refuge during droughts. And I think that was something that is in abundance in Big Chico Creek that allows those fish to kind of snap back.

Okay.

Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense.

I was wondering about that, And how many... How much the fish migrate due to the... You know, because of that warmer water if they go and and up ups river, like I steel it almost would to seek some of that that cold colder the colder trips coming in or deeper holes like that. That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. And that was something that Michael and I had done.

When was that... We started that last year, Michael was it over the summer. We were just

snorkel through

bid well park just down lower, and we were checking the temperatures each day as well, watching the temperatures

the daily water temperatures just

inch up and up and up, but at same time? We're like, okay. Well, what is the last temperature?

What is the warm temperature that we stop seeing trout down here?

Yeah. That was that was last spring. That was that was pretty interesting. I'd like to I'd like to do that again once temperature start to warm up. Because because you see...

Well, two things. You know, you you see these trout down low,

trout potential steel and and my assumption is that for the most part, the fish that we see

down low in the Creek,

you know, this time of year in May and June,

are actually Juvenile that are that are ocean bound. So they're, you know,

just about sm or and starting sm and out migrate.

And to do that, they have to migrate through the lower portions of the creek.

But you can, you know, if you if you snorkel within bid well park and then wash these fish, they're happily hanging out and feeding, and they're still, you know, they're still

growing as a as a consequence. But there comes a time when, yeah, either

seasonally,

the temperature just gets too hot,

and they have to do something like, they have to either go back up if they're resident fish or they have to go out to the ocean before,

before that that temperature becomes or or it has negative effect

to the, yeah, to the point of of mortality.

And

I was surprised that

what temperatures we actually still saw fish and in the lower bid well park.

There was well into the twenties

celsius that we that we continue to see fish. What's on...

Yeah. No no wet seat required for that one yeah. No way you required. What's twenty Celsius in English?

What what's the the

eighty two is twenty eight.

So somewhere in mid seventies.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. Like, there Yeah. There's an episode that John Mc does around the red... On the the Op podcast where he talks about the relationship between water temperature and still had productivity in terms of bite.

And. He gets into in detail for, like, almost an hour and a half around this this concept, and it's a really interesting episode to listen to for anybody,

no matter what level you're at even if you're a scientist, he'll probably... You'll probably learn something from them. But

the thing that he said is, like, the ability for a particular, you know, trout speech... Sam species to, you know, to to to deal with water temp is really

down to the genetic,

you know, pre predisposition of that that particular strain

in a particular waters shed because there's just certain waters sheds where their life history is they, you know, they've grown up in this and they're then genetically

over, you, you know, many, many, many years,

they've they've developed

the ability to, like, you know, either deal with warm temperature better than others or not.

So that... Oh, yeah. No. And it's pretty Southern California steel head or the prime example of this. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. It's a really it's a really great episode I can't remember the the exact episode number, but he's only got, like, eleven or twelve out now. So it's it's pretty easy to find. Just water temperature and steel head.

But yeah.

Talking about the nutrients into that making hell,

just prolific, maybe the the bug life might be or whatnot. I It's apart from me not, and I think we've talked about this in the past, but to bring up the fact that, and know they... I think it was the eighties and maybe you guys

at Fish bio know more about this. But the the famine production was was low on the creek. And so

they came... Mission game came to the.

They agreed that there was too many

northern Pike, basically,

hard headed pike min in the, in the system.

So they they poisoned it. They poisoned the entire creek,

and it killed off all these sc bins

who's the lead guy up the ecological preserve that that runs the eli.

Okay. Right now. Yeah. Not eli live with the the the professor that

Oh, retired professor Paul Mas.

Paul Mad. He... Yeah. He he was specifically asking me here. And, you know, look for... Look for lamp rate heels in there when you're snorkeling around, and I did. I was digging mud up. I was digging up to debris looking for him. I never saw one. You know, in there. And it just guy always think about, you know, that poisoning that that happened on that creek and just wiping out everything and having to have to rebound.

Was have I accurate in that information?

Very very much so. Yeah. So that they they did.

It it... Well, what what's what's the politically correct term for this days is? Like, they chemically renovated at the Creek. Yes. The renovation. Chemically cast to the Creek.

To, yeah, do to reduce the the perceived

competition by quite native fish species on on the more desirable cell on.

And

Yeah. The it... The native fish community doesn't seem to have completely bounced back from that. So we have, you know, in in multiple years of surveys now up up on the ecological reserve.

We have yet to see a pike mineral or a hard head. We very rarely,

see a sucker.

We have yet to see any seats or or lamp to the lamp juvenile,

but then again, that may very well be.

Related to the methodology. Right? They live in the sediment they're stuck in the mud if you will. Yeah. They're they're very, very difficult to see when you get or impossible to see when you're snorkeling. So... Right. Again, the methodology is is more geared towards Fisher that are in the water column them.

But then for a lamp, you know, it's it's been it's been very difficult to to do

elect or get permission to do more invasive survey methodologies up there, like, electro phishing

where you could actually get your hands on on lamp raise much more. Yeah. If efficiently.

But

so I can't I can't say whether they're there or not there.

It it certainly seems

reasonable to expect that they haven't rec colonized to a great extent.

In part because Lamp are a little different than Salmon, like, where... Or or Sell von in general.

That

have a tendency to go back to their nato streams, not always, but, you know,

they have a tendency too.

And lamp a different lamp seem to hone in when when the adult lamp come back from the ocean

the ana specific lamp in any case.

They they hone in on pheromones that are released by the j loans. So whenever they come back, they go somewhere where there's Juvenile, so they know

that there's... The debt conditions are suitable where they're going.

Okay. And Can I unbox that just for a second?

Yeah.

Alright. So if let's talk about just sent and na streams for a second. So

with with trial, they look... They they smell literally like the water chemistry. Right? The nutrient makeup of the of that particular waters shed. Correct? Yeah.

With lamp prairie, you're you're saying that the pheromones only from the Juvenile is what these lamp on the ocean kia.

Well, they they

generally... You know, they come come back to fresh water, And then within the river system. Okay. Hone on places where they they can they can sense the the pheromones that are released by the Two wells. Well

And as a consequence, if you wipe out all the juvenile,

you really reduce your chances of any adults coming back to to recall us. It's like, it's, like, a homing pigeon without a magnetic pole.

Exactly.

That's crazy.

Okay. So do they still... Do they smell their streams kinda like trout do and then they kinda hone in further on their nesting grounds off the pheromones? Is that how it works?

You know, I I think so. I'm not sure to to what level. I mean, I I doubt, you know, a a lamb race swimming under the golden gate can can perceive the pheromones from a an ami or a a the Juvenile and Big Chico Creek. But they could find their crib, the, like, a, like, a trout code. Right? And then and then once they're up in that crib, then the ph amount piece becomes more of a... Yeah. I think even even the tri...

Even the tri terry itself I know, that it it could the it the ph could determine whether or not a

a lamp makes the makes the right turn up, big Chico Creek as it comes up the sacramento. That's crazy.

I neat.

Sorry. I kinda got on a tangent there, but that was what a trip.

That's some pretty good smell.

Yeah. No. That's very cool. That's my cool what he's fish do.

Yeah.

In lamb prayer fish. Right?

It's kind of.

I don't wanna touch them now, man. There... They're early, early derived fish.

Yeah.

Jaw dishes. But, hey, something...

I'm sure we can we could briefly mention this. Lamp raise might be interesting for

for those that are pursuing stripe in the spring,

in the Central Valley.

Tyler, do you wanna briefly tell them about lamp raising in in pre their stomachs.

Yeah. I was just gonna say that this was... I was gonna ask if springtime time is when the adults are coming to to spawn. Isn't it?

Oh, and in terms of spawning,

okay. I'm not certain about that, but,

Michael was mentioning though was

that,

our screw traps. So so some of the stuff that we're doing on on the other rivers that we monitor,

so this would be, like, the Santa's loss.

You know, we start picking up a lot of am seats,

these... Really juvenile,

lamp prairie in our... In the rotary screw traps, which were also used to to count

juvenile salmon.

But then we we were involved in

we're still involved in, I guess I should say, a diet study of

of among other species,

striped bass. And so the folks that have been

pulling the diets the gut contents from these striped bass.

Have they've been bounding a lot of am seats or these juvenile

juvenile lamp in there. So these are acting as a pre... Like, at this time the year acting is that a pretty solid food source for these dry fast. So two questions.

How long and what color?

Oh, man. It can't more than tore round in six six... Four to six inches. Yeah.

Dark brown Forty six. Okay.

Interesting.

Cool.

Yeah. Black worms have been black plastic worms have been a common

tactic used by conventional conventional Anglers for stripe in our system for a long time. I'm excited to get out and try some of that. I'm hoping...

Hoping we can get out do some stripe fishing before long. I'm gonna put a tu rigged

saint on a fly rod.

Well, Chad, maybe we need to get a bigger boat. If you can get a thirty foot... If you get a thirty footer, we can fit a whole bunch of people but there's fix the distance in between.

I did that. I not getting another boat. My... I could I might be getting a kayak, actually.

I've been looking at kayak lately.

But that's... So for another episode. So going back to, big chu Creek. I I thought it was interesting. One of the things that I noticed because I... You know, I've

I've had a spent most of my life catching the crowd up there and doing it in a number of ways whether it's limp being or...

Conventionally or for drive drive flies and streamers were always my favorite tactic. You, I don't catch as many fish, but it's just a fun way to to get them. But the one thing I noticed when I was snorkeling the poles is I there would be some really big long runs.

And tail outs that were big enough and

had enough, you know, structuring it to provide, you know, a habitat for these fish. But I didn't see very mini trout in the the back end of these pools if if any.

Which I thought was kind of interesting.

What I did start to see the populations,

increase and

really stack up. And again, this was in the later in the summer, low water conditions

the fish started to show up. As soon as I got...

I would look up, and I would see... I would start to see the elephant here. What's the I... What's the actual plant called

Michael or tyler.

Question I heard it it referred to as the Indian rhubarb or elephant ear?

Yeah. The but that plant,

when... As soon it would...

When I become even with that plant on the bank, I'd start to see fish. So as in, I was like, it was a memory for me. Like, oh, okay. So the current, basically,

the the ripple comes in, it creates tu water, oxygen oxygenated water has, you know, a bunch of movement in there, and then it ended tailing out or the current dying off

into the the tail out, that's basically the end point where I would... I I would start to see the fish because I was swimming up from the back end of the hole. Right? And then I when I started to see those fish, I I just kinda of like, okay. What it... What's what's what am I seeing? What's the, you know, what can I compare this to? And every time I poke my head up, I'd see a elephant in your plant. You know So I thought that was pretty interesting. You know, as an Angle. I'm like, oh, cool. That's

instead of, like, wasting my time in some of this slow moving water where there was no fish. I can kinda, you know, focus my efforts on on some of the place... The places where the fish were actually

were at, you know?

At the great observation. Yeah.

I thought that was pretty cool.

I don't know if that runs in the same way that's the same case or around don't other streams out there, but,

but it... And I know around the world, is different. Like, you in New Zealand we've talked about this. The the bigger trout are up higher in the head. Word in here in California the complete opposite. Now.

And some of the bigger fish that I've seen

have been in tail outs of of stream. So I just... I guess,

and you guys probably know better, but the...

Because

Because their creek was still low and and there it was a little bit warmer. Those fish were stacked up at the head of the pool at that time. So maybe do that.

That makes makes sense. But, yeah, that observation.

Umbrella plant, I think is the official term. The

Dollar mara

is the the genus.

I don't know why I can think of that earlier.

But, yeah. It it that provides a number a a number of

benefits for the fish. Like, from one, it's always... It's shade and cover. Right? And then there's... If you if you ever shake one of those, and if you shake the bush or, there's all sorts of stuff that falls off into the water. There's are all sorts of bugs and spiders, and, you know, it's it's a it's a food source for sure, or at least a, yeah. The sort... Not the planned itself, but what lives on it.

And, yeah, Back to that observation that you typically

at least on Big Chico Creek see those fish

near the head of the pool

during the summer, I think it has to do with with a, again, it's a a number of reasons.

More... Generally speaking,

just based on my experience, like, any given pool, like, ninety percent of the water is empty water. Right? And so... Mh. Mh. If you think of the current... Moving through a pool,

it's

initially concentrated at the top, right at the head of the pool where the current comes in. So there, you can sit in low velocity water, not spend a whole lot of energy, but have the current going and by and picking off food.

That tends to be where it's most oxygenated, which is particularly relevant

during the summer months,

when when the water is fairly warm.

And then those are also

to best... Yeah. Like, the the best feeding position. So you typically have the the dominant fish and the larger fish

in in those positions. But it can... It varies, you know, with with the season

if they're spawning, they'll be in the tail. If, you know, during during

spring or during any hatch, they're probably spread throughout the pool within again,

if The the hatch is peter out,

they'll they'll

concentrate again

near the head of the pool. So...

But yeah. It's a totally accurate

observation. That's a good point you bring up to is that a the the chop fisheries a lot of the the child spawning takes place at the end of end of February in that February March windows at all these streams are a little bit different. But if you get... If you ever do see a...

You'll notice it a a red in the tail out, You know, we're in you even can sometimes see trial spawning

definitely a time to leave those official alone and and not not harass. Right? I mean, in some places, usually that stream closed

in California, but there are some situations where the stream is left open and,

in those time period. So it's just

a good

character judgment just to not fish target those those fish. One thing I I did notice too. When you you mentioned the the fish being able to feed in these holes and and how they react in the different

different parts of the holes.

I saw I saw fish some looking up, like their body was kicked up at, like, a forty five degree angle and they were almost like, looking

to the surface as they were gonna eat something and some of the fish had the opposite

as they were kick their kicked down, their heads were actually looking down

and swimming longer the bottoms, speeding off stuff off the bottom. I thought that was kinda interesting

to to see.

Yeah. No. We had there's trout. They're also very

kind of territorial. So, you know, you'll get the one big one,

hanging out in the prime position,

where... And all the other smaller ones kinda have to fight and buy for

for optimal,

feeding locations. But, yeah, the big... The big trout will find that optimal spot that Michael was talking about that has just the right amount of slack water,

but also,

enough flow coming in so that food is basically brought to you.

All the things you can learn from sticking your head in the water every once in a while. Put the raw down and pick up a pick up a mask and snorkel. It'll benefit everybody. I'm amazed every time that's why I love

Yeah. I think,

again, I if we talk about make... I talk about John's podcast a lot, but I think one of the thing reasons he... His podcast is doing so well, and he's such a good angle

is that he spends an in inordinate amount of time under the water, You know, Which a lot of people don't do.

And his insights said he's got been able to to draw from that have has been pretty pretty incredible stuff that he's been putting out.

Yeah. And I And I think I think this is something that we can

legally

recommend,

I don't think the average person. So so when we do these surveys need the permit to do it. Right? But if you just go swimming or, you know,

do it for non scientific reasons,

you don't.

So, yeah. I would... I would encourage all all fly Anglers this this summer temperatures warm up to, you know, every once in a while, take a mask and a snorkel to their favorite river and

spend... Spend part of their time,

looking under underwater and just washing.

You'd be... Yeah. Surprised at what you learn.

So...

Well, well, anything else we're coming up on the the the fifty five minute mark,

and our

Whatsapp shuts off at at sixty minute mark just as it heads up. Yeah.

So I just wanna make a plug

for the latest video,

Fish my bill that we have out on,

that have some of the

survey results. The snorkel survey results from our last year. Trip on Big T. And so that you could find out on Youtube. It's called counting trout, a survey of Rainbow Trout in Big Chico Creek.

And while you're there, be sure to be sure to like us like sales. Subscribe. Subscribe to them. And subscribe. Yeah. Yeah.

I'll make sure to, Tyler, if you wanna email me the links to everything. I'll make sure to put those in the show notes for you.

Sure. Yeah.

Cool.

I've got one Forget to check check regulations too on your... On the streams you're gonna go to Big Queue Creek as a,

has special regulations, so it's not open during regular trial season just always make sure you... If you guys are planning on fishing any stream make sure you check out the reg, just go forward.

I've got I've got I've got a bass question for you guys.

Not sure if I'll be the right person. I'll try. Okay. So it... Like, a lot of the, you know, any of... And we have five minutes. So, these these professional anglers like could at, you know, tournaments and things. They're especially this time of year, they're targeting fish, they're targeting bass on their beds. Right?

You hook up on a bed bed bass, and you say you put it in your live well. You take it to get weighted in, and then you'd, like, you know, that could be, like, three miles away from where it was caught.

Do... Are bass fairly, like, transient in terms of where they bed

you know, like, even if I if I fish on a bed bass and catch it and do and let it let it go and it's, like, you know, twenty, thirty yards from where I caught it.

What... Do you know if they just, like, go back and, you know, forget that they were caught and go back to what they were up to? Or do they just go find another bed? How does that all work? Do you know?

Well, they definitely look for

very specific. They look for specific conditions Right? Like, the water depth has to be right. The temperature at... While, temperature is variable, but the the depth and the substrate have to be right. And that's why it's, you know, often very

I don't wanna say it's easy, but, you... It's often highly likely that if you... If you're looking for them, you can find bath sitting on their bits because it's almost like red. It's it's fairly fairly easy to spot. Yeah.

And

they're they're very focused on on defending that,

that bed, which is why fishing is so successful if you if you choose to do it.

And I back in in my college days I very vividly remember and an afternoon that was over on

at Ruth lake. I don't know if you ever fished that, But it was in spring and we, you know, my buddy was big big time bass fisherman and

Like, oh, there's a bath on the bed. He cast at it and caught it, Know, and when it threw back in the water ten yards the away that fish right went right back to it. He cast it again. Caught it again. He caught it three times on three casts the same fish. I see.

I'm not I'm I certainly... I don't know. I wouldn't advocate for that type of fishing.

I can tell from that experience that, you know, the fish would probably wasn't

traumatized

or or or

strongly

disturbed by the experience... By the experience because, yeah, It went right back to

to where it was, and it did the same thing over again. And after maybe he could've have caught it more... Could've have caught it more more off. Been still. After three after catching it three times you stop.

So I think I think they're fairly resilient to it, but then again, it's...

I mean, my personal choices is not to target.

Reproducing fish whether that's a a stupid or a trout on a red or a a bass on a bed.

Yeah. Right. I choose not to.

Well, we gotta

I wanna talk to you guys at some point about the the relocation stuff you're doing with with the stripe, What... What's going on down there. And is it the stand you guys are doing that on?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Is that that's something we can we can get into in a future episode that'd be cool.

No. That mean, there's all... Yeah. There's all sorts of of interesting interesting stuff coming out of that. Cool. Out of that study. So... Yeah. We be glad to... Yeah. Let's just get it let's just get it on the books then, like, sooner rather than later and maybe knock it out next week.

Strive for a bad beat them all to the pig. And thing.

I that was so funny.

Oh, alright. Well cool. You so much hate meal? Yeah.

But let's her wrap it up because whatsapp gonna kill stop us in about forty five seconds. So thank you guys. Very good. Thanks everybody for coming on the show. Thanks for listening. You guys,

be safe out there, wash your hands, all that stuff.

Hopefully, this this shit stops pretty soon and we can get back to our regularly scheduled stuff where we actually have people

inside the building and the audio qualities where you guys need it to be. But if you... Like this episode, please leave us a review ever review helps.

What else, Nick? We got twenty seconds.

Not much. Check out our website, and we have some hats

there for sale still, some awesome caps for the women too,

and get a lot of good feedback on on some of those hats from one of my friends. So... That's it's gonna. I don't hang Good, but they're busy. It's gonna hang up.

Alright. Okay. See you guys.

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