Western Waters Conservancy

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This is the Bartlett fly fishing podcast.

Where we discuss North fly fishing, guiding, fisheries signs and management,

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No better, fish better. Here's your hosts. Chad A and Nick Hanna,

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to another exciting episode of the Barb Fly fishing Podcast. I'm one of your host, Nick Hanna, here with Chad A chad.

How we doing, buddy. Oh,

good. We've had a bit of a hiatus.

Yeah. I think about five weeks. Yeah. It's been a little while. Hogan Hogan been telling the line for us. Though and I appreciate that, Hogan. We've both been Nick and I personally been pretty busy, a lot of going on our lives, and we needed break. We were on, like, I think we had put out a hundred fifty eight straight episodes, and I just... I was getting a little burned

to be honest and, you know, Hogan stepped up. Perfect timing and, what's where we're back at it. And now there's other contributors the podcast you guys will be hearing from. So it's gonna be cool. You're gonna have more content, not less, more is better

in the Us economy. Right? Isn't that the the mantra? Yep. Yep.

I like less more. Yeah. Yeah. I do too, but, yeah, this isn't a political podcast. Not just gonna keep it. Fun fun efficient stuff.

I'm actually really excited about this podcast. I'm I'm gonna introduce our guests here in a second, but

before I do, you know, this podcast is gonna be about,

Western Rivers consultancy. And and to me, I feel like a lot of people don't know about W c, and

you know, we we hear about Cal trout, who

obviously, he's our sponsor and and in a travel limited.

So I'm just excited to hear what, we have the founder and president on the line and and also the conservation director. But just to give you guys, And know I'll introduce some here in a second I and let them kinda introduce themselves and and and W c. I'm sorry if I'm throwing that out there at Western Rivers consultancy.

But just to give you guys a little

just background about this

nonprofit it... It's amazing.

More than likely, they've touched a piece of water that you guys love and enjoy fishing. You put your boots into. Yep. Yep.

So a huge role in protecting, you know, some of our favorite waters and and and they acquire land and and work with local agencies and I'll let them talk a little bit more about that, but

you know, the Rio grande,

the Go koala River, the Snake River, the John day, the clan, Ante,

Scott North.

These are all different water says that these folks have, have

been able to, help in

preserved and and do some fantastic things with and and we're just excited to kinda hear more about

what they've done and and what they have going on in the future. So out without further ado, I wanna introduce some

Sue and Josh

Well, thanks you guys. And I'm I'm so excited that you're back

doing what you do because your podcasts are amazing. We all love them,

and and we're really appreciative.

To have an opportunity to hang out with you y'all and share,

what W is and does. And

and and, you know, Nick, you're absolutely right.

Everybody knows a river we've worked on, and we've

We've just always kind of like to fly under the radar. That's

Yep.

And let our work speak for itself, and and it turns out in today's world,

you need a little visibility just so people know who's who.

So so Western Rivers conservatory to start from the beginning.

It's been around since nineteen eighty eight,

and we work in the,

eleven Western states. West of the hundredth Meridian where dry farming begins.

And and today, we have projects in eight of those states active projects. I think we have twenty six or twenty seven or twenty eight projects right now and. So

so so chances are you guys are fishing on something we're working on right now.

And and but what... Who are we? You know, what, we're about

saving the great rivers of the West for the benefit of fish, wildlife and people.

And so

our tool, our singular tool is land acquisition. We buy

strategically important pieces of River land

and permanently protect it. We put in the hands of a long term steward to be managed for conservation forever.

And so that's that's a particular brand of conservation. You know, once it's in the hands of the long term Steward, there's restoration that takes place, you know, there's a lot of opportunities too.

If if if the landscapes intact to keep it that way, if the landscape been altered to bring it back,

you know, it it's every project has its own

needs.

And

and Josh, who's been... So I've been with Western River since, you know, the beginning of time.

But and but Josh has nearly been with Western Rivers

since the beginning of time. I think Josh started in what, nineteen, ninety eight or so, Josh,

ninety nine. That's right.

Yeah.

And, and so Josh, what did I leave out that you'd wanna add for who we are and what we do?

Well, I would add in in addition to setting up our projects for

conservation

of habitat as well as restoration. It also opens the door to access. And that's a really big deal when you're talking about being able to get folks out on rivers to enjoy enjoy it, whether it's for fishing or pad or just spending time with your family.

Yep. And, you know, I'm so glad you mentioned that because our mission. We have a dual

mission. And one is

is ensuring that we have

ecological

functioning rivers, and the other is that is that...

We deliver access where it's compatible with recreation. And those are those are c equal in our in our mission and and

and when we started doing this work,

we thought

the people who cared about our work were people who think about conservation.

And and we really didn't

understand until we were deep into our work that Fishermen,

and and

hundreds and anglers, both

our

understands the importance of our work as well as we do.

Because for anyone who stood hip deep in the middle of the stream

they know exactly

what

a healthy river needs, and they want it just as much as anyone else. And so so we've discovered that our constituency and the people,

that understand us and our mission best are are those who spend time out there just like us. And so so Fishermen and hunters and and for that matter,

and any recreation that spends time

walking along the river or understand us

best of all.

We're we're gonna go over a lot of the projects that you guys have are working on past and present. But before we do, you... So you said something that... That kinda just stuck in my head and I want you to kinda unbox that a little bit. You said strategically important land.

Can you kind of, like,

explain

what your parameters are, the strategic guidelines or... Or, you know, milestones, if you will for for

either doing a going through and and getting a peace of land or not?

Well, you know, there kinda two different questions and I'd love to unbox it a little bit. First of all, like, what makes something strategically important. Right? And and and scientists

will

look at a stream and say, this is the most important one. This is the second most important one, and they'll do one to a hundred and one. In a row. Mh. And and for us,

you know, you can't always do one or two or three, you know, the the top priorities, but but but as long as,

you can do number five and number ten and number fifteen, You know, you're you're

you're you're making a huge difference. It's just you... You can't always start with the best. And so what is important. So for us,

head waters

and est

are both critical

for

the health of river systems. You know, est nourish,

and are that mixing zone

for for nutrients for for fish.

And and of course, head waters are are where where it's at. You know, the the

the flow, quite

clarity,

quality, quantity of water and and ensuring that it makes all the way downstream

is a big deal. And then, of course,

any of the confluence of

streams to the main stem

are, critical areas. And so you start to

start to want to ensure that

and there's a there's a an author and and,

biologist,

Jim L tow.

Josh, what does Jim,

what what's his credential?

He's he used to be on our board, but he's kind of a fish guru as his peter mo,

Yeah. He's in a he's in a esteem

biologist his biologist that's been working out in the Northwest for a very long time of a Phd scientist

who is really pioneered a

of, an approach of looking at, what are all the different life

history needs, like history stage needs of of fish and and chronic those and realizing that you can't just work on one piece. You have to look at what is the the the totality of the needs of these species,

and and then that gives you an idea of where to start working.

And so in the way L Tow describes it and why I'd like to talk about it is as he describes it as links in a chain and their life links,

and you need every link

for the chain to work.

And so

a great example and we'll get into this later, I'm sure, but at our Blue Creek project, which is, like at River mile fourteen or so,

from the ocean, the the the Clam River

meets the sea,

near clam and fourteen miles upstream is this the first cold water

called Blue Creek.

And

At Blue Creek,

one hundred percent of the sc salmon,

stop at Blue Creek and lower their body temperatures by eight and a half degrees.

From the ocean to river mile fourteen at Blue Creek, their body temperatures went up so much that they need to go into, this cold water refuge that we created,

to lower their body temperatures so they can continue upstream.

If that life chain link wasn't there,

the run would go extinct.

And there are links like that all the way up to their spawning grounds.

And so when we talk about strategically important

properties we're talking about those life link.

Areas, those hotspots spots that without them,

the runs would cease to exist for one reason or another. Okay. So my takeaway is that when the this the strategy of whether or not you guys are gonna go to do a project really goes

locks with that that particular target species life history and what you guys can do to kinda shepherd it along. Is that right?

It is. But, you know, there's a lot of different species. And so...

Because we're really more about River Health than we use species.

Just like a canary of mine. Okay. Right.

And because, for us, the river system has to function

as a whole. And so that the the landscape

that supports rivers, or rivers that support the landscapes, you know, it's kind of you can't separate the two. They all need to have their needs met they all, it needs to function. And so that one particular species, in this case,

you know, Chin that that run would

couldn't succeed without Blue Creek is is an indicator of the importance of Blue creek, but it

isn't the reason why we pursued that project. That project also very important for C

C

is

is a is a threatened species in that system. And... And, actually, Josh is it threatened or endangered or...

Northern white right. I know. Northern California Southern Oregon C

listed threatened.

Yeah. But, for that same project, and this is just a really good example.

That project is critical from the Marble mer let

because

the Mer let depends on these

assemble these continuous

landscapes.

And because they, you know, fly in from the ocean

go, you know, super fast and they just come barrel in and they need

big wide old growth tree limbs to kinda of just

crash land into.

And they and they... And so they tend to follow river recorders and they and they need this continuous landscape of forest to lands, preferably with late sterile forest old growth forest,

And and that's something that,

hardly exists today.

And

and two of our projects, the h up on the olympic Peninsula in Washington State and and the and the Blue Creek Project on the clam at the Northern California,

Both of them, we got involved for the river system, and the health of the river, but it's a... They are the two finest marble mirror bur projects around. Is that true? Am I... Am I saying it right, Josh? You're you're absolutely right. And you know, to a mirror let. An old growth tree with a big huge limb where it can crash land and and

and we're as young nest,

that's a can to,

spawning and gravel for a famine. It did kinda oc optimize the same place and and their life history stages. And so Mh. Your less need... They follow rivers upstream the same way of a salmon or a steel head and they arrive at the place where they're gonna where they're gonna rear their young, in the mirrorless left case, it's a big old growth tree in the Salmon case, it's some nice clean gravel that's got some great cold oxygenated water flowing through it. But they they both use the system in a similar way, but in totally different parts of it. But it turns out, like, Who is saying if we can conserve the whole, the the the strategic pieces, then we end up benefiting both these pieces. And so you might come into a project because you've heard, hey, this is the best

wild Chin run remaining in the state of Washington.

And so that's why you're out there looking at land, but it turns out in the fruition of the project, you're working on one of the best malls year lead, not to mention spotted owl projects

in the state of Washington as well. That's where we get that overlap. And that's why none of our projects are our singular species. They're all about the health of the river system, the health of the ecosystem.

But you always need to have focus, and the species give us focus. Yeah. And then you get the collateral benefit by just going out, you know, focusing on one. Yeah.

Right? Exactly. And so and so that was the other part of your question was, you know, what are your... What does the project look like? What are the milestones? You know, what what what the heck do you guys do? Or at least that's the question I heard.

And and so and the answer is is is we or really,

conservation real estate people, because we...

I recognize

the

lands that are important in river system.

And work with willing sellers

to,

to gain control of that land, enter into a contract for that landscape or for that property.

And then we...

If we need to, we'll buy and hold it with

short term money, usually alone from

a friendly

foundation

or individual. And and then we'll we'll we'll try to find...

Takeout out funding, permanent

conservation funding that allow us to permanently protect

those lands

and put them in the hands and most importantly, put them in the hands of a long term Steward who's gonna take care of the property

according to our conservation vision. Forever,

And and those stewards

are pretty varied. They go from...

Because everybody... The one of the criteria you need to be... You need to know what you're doing. You need to know how to manage land. You need to understand forestry and you need to understand

fish biology and you need to understand the resource values of the property that you would be owning and managing and then you need the resources. You need that depth could be able to manage those lands

and to be able to manage them in perpetuity

So wow. The perpetuity is a

is a long time. And

And and so

so we try to find,

people who who have the ability to...

Deliver that kind of certainty or a succession strategy that will ensure that kind of certainty.

And so we'll work with the federal government will work with me, you know, all four of the natural resource agencies, whether it's Us Wildlife service or the forest service B,

to be long term stewards and we'll ensure that there's an

overlay management overlay for that property

that

that

is consistent with the conservation vision

we share.

And but we'll work with states. We'll work with counties. We'll work with

Land trust, and

and we'll work with private individuals with conservation ease. Mh.

As if that's the appropriate

strategy for that area.

Can I can I think of the money side of this as kind of like a non profit reit real estate investment trust?

I'm thinking more of a charitable

remainder trust.

Well,

you know, I'm not sure. I would... You know, maybe maybe it's more like a reit in the sense that

We are... We're... We are marrying

funding that's interested in

delivering

conservation, long term conservation. We're marrying that funding with

lance.

Yeah. And sometimes that funding

exists. Like, you know, there... There's

you guys

probably heard and

and we're,

part of supporting

Congress passing the Great Americans Outdoor act.

Which which permanently

funds

the land and water conservation fund.

And the land and water conservation fund uses

offshore oil

leasing revenues

To

for... To allow the natural resource agencies, the forest service or the And Wildlife service to acquire lands for the purposes of conservation. And and that fund has been successful fully operating for more than fifty years,

and it sunset it a few years ago, and and and the entire conservation community, land conservation community has been working to ensure that

that would become a permanent source of funding.

And and just last month,

it Congress passed and

and the president signed into law, the Great Americans Outdoor act that allows us to have funding

to acquire lands for conservation,

to to,

fund it permanently to the tune of,

nine hundred and fifty million dollars a year.

So that's exciting stuff, and

And

Nick, I forgot why I got off on that. No. Chad talking about Reits. Chad. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, the Reit. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So... Exactly. And, yeah.

How...

What about you guys? What about your organization makes it possible free to get these deals done where others can't?

Well, I was gonna... I wanted to bring a an example of Blue Creek up because,

I think there's a store to tell there with that has to do with carbon. And...

Kind of

using that per... You, as a purchasing power to...

And I don't know the details, Maybe you can go into that a little bit more soon. Is that

does that align with what? Sure. What he's talking about?

Yeah. It sure does. Well, what I...

So so we kind of bundle it all up and think of it as conservation finance.

And because, you know, marrying

conservation dollars up with a project is is easy peasy.

And and what's what's difficult is when there there isn't enough money to go around? Like, how do you do these really important projects,

and there isn't just a pot of money sitting there for everybody to go

use? And and so

So,

why Western Rivers is successful

in part is because we're,

creative and ten niches, and and because Blue Creek, which is the a great example of this.

With was a was a sixty

million dollar

forty seven thousand acre project.

So in forty seven thousand acres is three times the size of the island of Manhattan,

it's it's, you know, a big, big

swath of the landscape, and sixty million dollars is a is a heavy lift for

accomplishing a conservation project. And

and so

we knew that this land had to be protected. We knew that

without Blue Creek,

the

salmon run would cease to exist. And so we had to figure it out. And so that's that's what we do best. So how we figured it out.

Was we took these

non traditional sources of funding. We went and saw that there was a,

a loan fund for the... Out of the Clean Water Act

and it was intended for non point source pollution, and we said,

hey,

our project,

if it were harvested instead of conserved contributes to non point source pollution, we were eligible for that loan and we went,

and we tapped into that find it had

hardly been done for the purposes of conservation. It's really intended for building sewage treatment plants and water filtration plants and bricks and mortar kind of stuff.

And but but we we,

you know, thread the needle, and we've

secured,

a zero percent

interest twenty five year loan through that fund to buy the first portion of Blue Creek. And, you know, essentially free money. It was amazing.

But then that was only, you know, the first twenty million and we had forty million more to go, and we didn't have very much in the way of public funding sources available to us. And so then we

saw that people were developing

carbon projects so instead of harvesting trees,

you could do a conservation overlay and

monetize that at by

capturing carbon

and and developing a carbon project that

puts a carbon management overlay on the property and selling

the carbon on the property on the open market and the carbon market when we started back in two thousand eight

wasn't a very proven market. A lot of people thought it was a smoke mirrors kind of thing.

But it turns out it's funded

probably

twenty percent of our project. It's been funded through

the sale of carbon.

And so

we don't cut trees, we leave them standing

and we generate revenues at the same time. So creative finance is what I call it. And then the final

piece of creative

financing that we did was to take another non nontraditional

financing tool, which was in... Which is called new markets tax credits.

And new markets tax credits are like like,

historic task tax credits. It's it's a it's just a Us treasury program that's intended to

lower, you know, level the playing field and allow

projects to be economically

viable in areas where it's tough to be economically viable.

And

and this Blue Creek project is in a severely economically depressed Census tract, which is a criteria for that program.

And we were able to,

through a lot of learning, and I must say a lot of brain damage you guys.

We, were able to generate about twenty percent of the

overall purchase price of the project through new markets tax credits.

So so it's a long winded answer saying,

one of the reasons why Western Rivers is successful is because we

figure out how to get it done, and it isn't...

Always easy. It sounds like you have a a group of smart attorneys on your side.

Well, we know where to find them.

And You know, Yeah. That's awesome. Well, you are you guys have been at this a, a super long time.

Maybe Josh, this might be an answer that you can you can dive into. What what stands out to you?

As far as it just a transformation, you know, on some of these projects that you've just seen, you know, after the stewards have gotten involved in managing this land and if you guys have acquired it, what are some of the things that you've seen stand out and that you're excited excited about?

You know, we've we've had some really remarkable results stem from our work and and one

great example is our work

up here in Oregon on the Western flank of Mount Hood on the Sandy River. Where we were able to partner with the low utility, Portland General Electric, Pg

with a number of other stakeholders and and the B,

and,

Pg removed two dams, making the Sandy free flowing from the glacier amount hood all the way out to the Columbia Gorge and onto the Pacific, and we were able to acquire over five thousand acres of land, and this is just twenty five miles from Downtown, Portland. Over five thousand acres of land along this thirteen miles of the sandy, four miles a little sandy and significant chunks of the bull run and the Salmon river, other important in the basin. That work sets the stage for about a decade of intensive

restoration work, And in since that time, they've seen returns

of c and steel had increased by, in some cases, a hundred percent, and other cases over two hundred and fifty percent. And that kind of result is just

remarkable.

And

and that's the kind of work that we like to accomplish. That's the kind of work that you look... You look back and see how our work

was acting as a catalyst for all this work that happened and in the decade after

and and just resulted in some of the strongest recovery efforts that we've seen for Salmon and steel had on the West Coast.

No. It's fantastic. Josh, just out of curiosity,

in each of those problem spaces that you guys went into do this restoration work, was there

was there, like, one

conservation, low hanging piece of fruit that you guys always could pluck or was it different at each time? And if so, what was that thing?

You know, we always...

We have two different types of of of properties that we try to prioritize and one is where where's the the highest functioning habitat right now. Where do you have whether it's side channel habitat with with great woody debris where you know you can get fishing to rear,

feeling some critical life history stage, say for for c that need to over winter, and that's the limiting factor and and and their population rebounding. If if that is there and functioning. But at threat because it could be logs or developed

into home sites. That's where we go first. The second place we go is where there's habitat that could be readily restored

into,

being high functioning. And and if you're working on a on a basin and wide project as we were,

on the San or or as we are, say, at Blue Creek, then there's gonna... It's gonna be a a, a mixed bag of both. And so we always try to start with... With with what is what is the the most functioning and and but you also have to go where the opportunity lies. And and so we take a very broad con comprehensive

approach knowing

where these different

opportunities are and realizing them as they become available.

Well, and and if I could chime in,

you know, you... I... Really, it's... What's the before picture and the after picture? Like, what what really changes.

Right? And and so

so at Blue Creek,

is just a really great example because it's so big. You you we really are having this tremendous

impact that reverb rates through the entire river systems. But at Brook creek,

it

before we bought it was an industrial

forest landscape.

So it's a mono species.

It's harvested the way industrial

forestry companies harvest, you know, and in whatever

legally allowable Clear cut

regime.

And

and the

consequences of those kinds of harvest. And and by the way, some of our best partners are

timber companies. We're... We we, you know, you need... We all need trees, we only use wood

timber harvest isn't bad, but it needs to be done, you know, when places where it's sensitive in a way that it's compatible with continuing to have healthy streams.

And so in the case of this landscape,

we were fearful

that these kinds of industrial forest activities

would result in tremendous sediment

and potentially overwhelm the road system.

And

create a catastrophic road failure, which would

fill in Blue Creek. It would a sediment segmentation would take away the capacity of Blue Creek to

hold fish

And

and so so that it's that fear of a catastrophic road blow out an erosion that comes from industrial forestry

that made us want to take that landscape.

And

change its management regime to protect the integrity of that stream.

And so

before it was an industrial landscape, and that in addition to sediment segmentation in the potential catastrophic blow

There's also the impact on, critters like the humboldt Martin

clear cuts

create,

have this cascade effect where it ends up that predators come in that will

to diminish the humboldt Martin population, and and so, so that kind of industrial forestry management regime

ends up being catastrophic

for the Humboldt Martin, which is either endangered or threatened

but it but a critical species.

And and so, that was the before.

The after

is that is that some of the Blue Creek,

the Blue Creek

waters shed will be managed as

a salmon sanctuary.

And the only forestry activities that will take place there are to

achieve an old growth forest

So there'll be some thin, and there'll be some instead of a mono

culture,

there'll be some

multi species planting things, and we'll let those trees grow and achieve a late serial forest status, an old growth status. And then outside of the Blue Creek

waters shed, but still within this landscape,

we're moving from an industrial forestry

regime to a sustainable forestry regime.

Fewer roads, letting the trees grow bigger

multi species instead of mono species

and

mimicking more of a natural regime.

And and, actually, I'm really out of my depth there, Josh is the expert on this stuff.

But that's. You're doing a great job.

That's the that's the before after.

And and in this case, it's the Euro rock tribe

who,

who's

homeland

center on this waters shed.

And it's actually their spiritual center will be managing the forest and trying to mimic these more natural

regimes.

Hey. So many things come to mind listening to you guys talk. I I start the one that came up In my mind is the C on our coast. And all the work that's been done to,

restore those fisheries and

from the logging. Right? The logging had a big impact on on a lot of those streams, and and now people are going back and, and, actually, you know, adding debris and adding habitat

to, you know, that's gonna provide the the rear for for those c to to survive and live. So, like, that... That's another example to me. And and maybe the clam and maybe you guys can talk about that too a little bit, but the... That whole system, right, as a whole from, you know, going up all the way to the Scott River and and the Williamson,

can can also, I'm sure be talked about.

Yeah. Well, Josh, do you wanna take that?

Yeah. Absolutely. And and and you nailed it in terms of thinking about the system as a whole and and the different pieces and who did a great job of articulating how Blue Creek plays this really critical function. And without these stepping stones of of cold water,

fish couldn't make it further up into the system, for example,

all the way up into the Scott.

And the the Scott River provides half of all the wild c production in the entire state of California,

critically important stream. And we've been working on the Scott.

We acquired two and a half miles of the South Fork Scott, a piece of property that has some really critical water rights,

almost sixteen hundred acres of land And what we're doing there is conserving that property, working with the Sis land trust and a conservation buyer and dedicating two point six

Cf of water into the stream, which will result in twenty percent increase in flow at a critical time. Wow. When the fish needed it. And and and that's a that's a great example of marrying

the work down at Blue Creek and getting these fish on us the system and making sure that the habitat is intact at the end destination where they need it. And then if you jump all the way into the top of the system up at at the Williamson where we worked on a... We just recently completed

convey to the Us and wildlife service in addition to the k with Marsh national Wildlife refuge

twenty two hundred acres along three miles of the Williamson River.

And this also includes very senior water rights. And while the fish don't make it all the way up there,

dedicating those water rights in stream and allowing that water to flow down through the system,

aids these fish and their life history stages downstream.

And so it's picking all these really strategic spots within the waters shed where you can make the biggest difference

to help restore and recover these runs and provide for their well being.

So... And and that's...

I'm sorry. And just Brook... Well,

I liken in our work to

lining

up

for a rapid.

So our job is to get control of this property

have a have a conservation vision for it, find the funding for it and then put it in the hands of the long term Steward. Ready to run the rapid.

And then

when it's in the hands of long term steward,

there... These restoration act more or restoration activities can take place. And that's where

some of

of your,

some of the Ngos we all know and love,

to t you,

Cal Proud,

lots of other,

Ngos that are less well known, get a chance to put their ore in the water and and improve those habitat.

We have...

And and in the case of the Williamson there's probably gonna be some brief channel, you know, changing how the work and and

and and eliminating some of the irrigation channels

really simple

restoration stuff. And

and on the...

Right on the Oregon and Nevada border,

we're gonna be

starting a project,

actually, we're gonna buy it tomorrow.

We're gonna buy

this ranch on Mc Creek,

which which blows into the Quinn River,

and

and but it's the only place

to recover

La hot and Cut road trout, the this particular regional species of La hot and Cut road trout. And so we're gonna buy that ranch. We're gonna permanently protect it. But then our partners

are gonna come in after it's permanently protected in the hands of the long term stuart, and they're gonna do

the hard work of actually restoring that stream.

So it's kind of a one two punch.

Sue,

I'm gonna say Cal trout, and then I want you to say

give them a... To say what comes to my I think a cal.

I got it. Well, cal out,

and Western Rivers worked together on Goose Creek, and, and it was a a

terrific partnership

between Cal,

Smith River alliance in Western Rivers where we protected

a ten thousand acre waters shed

to the Smith River

and a heck of a great stream to fish,

and Cal trout did a lot of the heavy lifting for

advocacy on that project.

And when you say cal,

I think of good friends and good guys who are doing great things for rivers in California.

A lot of my

very best friends

are huge cow child supporters, and

and we...

We we think I think, so very highly at them and hold them in high regard.

Sue question for you. So I've job I've just been listening. And you... It sounds like you guys are also

kind of like... And to use a real... I'd, like, a, you know, a home building analogy. You guys are kind of like,

the the developer

where the Ng is the builder.

Is that is that kinda is that accurate or you guys come in? You take care of the macro problem, and then they come in and take care of the micro problem.

You know that could... You know, that... That is a a pretty good analogy.

You know, one, the the the

the thing that we see. We... It's some... We hear a lot from foundations in particular Yeah We don't fund

acquisition we only fund restoration.

And and we're we're always inc because we're like, but you can't do restoration without

acquisition because

because the... And and the and the real gap in that is the permanent. Like like, if you can restore something

that you know is gonna be

managed for conservation forever, it's so much more

meaningful. Yeah. Then if you're gonna plan trees on a private individual's property,

so it'll be shaded

until they decide to cut them. You know, it it it's it's just... You you just don't have control. Nobody wants to help their buddy restore their car because they don't own the car at the end of the day. You know, it's like the guy that you restored the car for gets the... Try it. Yeah. So, try it. So... When you you guys you guys let's just... I wanna get back to this macro micro analogy. So you guys I wanna think about, like, goals for a project. Right? So when you guys

go in, you do your deal. You do the real estate deal. The the keys are handed to you. You bring in the one or more ngos.

Do you guys

Do you guys give them, like, operational goal goals and then let them work out the the milestones? Do you just say here's what we're... Here's here's the... Here's the metrics that we're... We wanna hit when this project done? Or do you let them figure that one out. You guys move on to the next project. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. And and so really,

I... The the vocabulary I use for that is that is that we need to have. And a management vision that's memorial

and something

enforce.

Mh. And so

so we might not put a metric in and tie someone's hands

because

as you know,

before we put woody debris and streams, we took woody debris out

because it was the belief then that woody debris wasn't good for fish.

And and every decade or two our

optics on what

is important for a healthy stream

ships. And so so we we stay at a slightly higher level

and insist that it'd be managed

but for a particular set of

goals. And those goals are gonna be pretty high level. You know, you can't do things that are detrimental.

You can't Yeah. Two two species, but we don't

prescribe

what you have to do.

Because we leave that

because because shit happens in and

operationally things change environmental or otherwise. Right?

Right. And and when when we're we're not... You know, our horizon isn't ten years or isn't fifty years forever. Mh.

That's a that's a hard thing to peg. And so you really just have to leave it at a level that's gonna be enforce

for that same

period. And and, you know, when it... If it's if a judge looks at your document,

they say, well, I don't know. That doesn't apply today. Well,

managing the landscape for the benefit of efficient wildlife

applies forever. Mh. We're not telling you what your management tool is we're saying you have to do it.

So that's that's that's that's how we approach it and our funding sources

usually have

restrictions that accompany it. So when land goes to a long term steward,

it's it comes to them via

these

funding sources, and those...

So whether it, you know, if if we're using funding from the Us Wildlife service and conveying it to a land trust,

there's a whole long ease that says exactly what Land can can't do. It doesn't tell them how to manage their land. It doesn't have those kinds of metrics. Yeah. But it tells them what they can and can't do. Have you guys ever had to claw back?

A claw back of, you know, and then something you gave an Ng because they just weren't executing?

We haven't and knock on wood that's but it's also...

Well, it's also because we're very careful.

About how we do things. And and we have

a stewardship program where we go back on a regular cycle every five, seven years depending on the project

and check it on it.

And

and we we we... If we see things that could be better,

you know, we'll follow up with the long term Steward and and talk to them about that. But but to date,

with the exception of, maybe, you know, there's been a little bit too much trash in some of the city parks we've done,

it... We've had a... It's it's been a, flawless record.

That's cool. And you just brought it really... Yeah. Something I've been just sitting here thinking about because you,

Josh, you mentioned the Scott River and adding, you know, twenty Cf. I I think that was the number to the the system, which is... Two point six. Too... Okay.

So... We wish it was twenty. Yeah. Yeah. You guys... You guys do so much work on some of these projects, and then you got the yahoo next door that's still,

you know,

diverting water or still, you know, mis managing his land that has a negative impact on you. So I and saw a story there, but it also makes me think about

you know, you guys started the head waters. Right? And and you're purchasing and inquiring this lane at the head waters, and then you have the est asu all the way down at the bottom. But what about all that stuff in the middle? And what you just said to about the trash and things. This is where I'm I'm leading because

you know, Big Chico Creek example is our is one of our favorite streams here locally, and and, I've been fishing it since I was a kid. Ad.

Yeah. It's it's an ad water. Yeah. Waters shows. And and I since I was a kid and you said some things earlier that, you know, you... All the other impacts... Not just for the fish, but, you know, for example, they allow hunting on that on that in that area. Right? And which is kinda unique because the native Americans did it. And so

not allow people to come in and hunt it as well, which I thought is pretty pretty cool, but still... Like, there's all this middle water. All this stuff in the middle that has being just impacted severely by

trash and pollution and you know, we're seeing it in in horrible ways. Like, I'll go to the mouth of Big Chico Creek after high water. And the mouth of it is just

chalk full of flip flops, liners,

needles,

trash bags, backpacks,

I mean, I keep going. I mean, I've seen it first and I'm just like, oh my gosh. Like, the stuff. Like, and it's it's hard to wrap our head around locally and it's like, so I guess my question is is what

what can be done? Like, what can we do or what advice do you have

for us to to improve on on those.

Well, Josh, you wanna start and I'll finish?

Yeah. There's...

But, you know, this someone goes back to

how selective we are and where we work. And and we don't typically work inside of of cities. Big Chico creek an interesting system that it starts in a more pristine area and then flows through a small city and then meets the sacramento and and more of a agricultural area. And where we focused was on the the the portions upstream of

of, Chico where we we we could really make an impact

ecological.

And in terms of wanting to see

good things done on a on an urban stretch of of a stream. Then I think that's really something that you wanna... You wanna have citizens motivated

to do that and take care of that body water.

Yeah. And, you know, it's so... Oh, go ahead. Well, I I was gonna say there are, but the problem is there's there's not enough political

willpower to to actually

enforce some of the... If we're just gonna use, like, our park as the example.

The the the no camping thing in the parks, so it's not really enforced. If it... It's given lip service, but when it comes down to it, brass tacks,

it's not being enforced.

And it's just a political hot button, You know, you cannot win on the either side of that argument. So that's that's the problem we see locally

as being the issue for for our particular little waters shit here and why it's, like, gets hammered.

But... Yeah. So anyway, go go ahead, josh.

Well, and, know, actually, can I take that or or is that okay?

Well, because Big chico is a creek is a really great example of,

our brand of conservation doesn't solve all problems.

And because we

we created the big Chico

preserve. Which I didn't even know until I the going into this meeting. I guess I did in the back of my mind, but It didn't really... Yeah. It just surfaced but

Did Yeah. They. That's awesome. Yeah. Thank you. And and we did that in conjunction with the university. Did did Kim Gross have his hands on that. I know he's, you know, our hometown hero in some ways, and and he, you know, obviously, has a passion for that creek. Did he have his

did he have to? He did. He did Well, I I almost think that's how we met Ken, because Ken been on our board,

and he's on our board now. Mh.

And

and so, yeah, he was he was

deeply involved in in that project with us. Mh. And as you know,

Ken and his wife, Katie

have a ranch upstream of Big chico Creek Preserve that actually have a super cool

Salmon hole. Mh. That's

phenomenal.

The Salmon just circle in there. It's amazing.

But but in creating Big Chico Creek Preserve,

we Bid well Park,

is

probably the largest

urban park with the big Chico Creek Preserve addition.

And

and we were thrilled that we were able to do that, and and and it's actually one of our only projects where we

there isn't an un federal public access. You need to

go, get permission, and then you can go anyone can go in, but it's... But it's controlled access. Mh.

And and h is allowed there, because that was one of be

fundamental compromises that were important to the community that they be able to allow that Hunting was continued to be allowed. And again,

with controlled access and permits. Mh.

But my point is,

that is... Was a critical

contribution effort for the stream, and it's a phenomenal resource. I think for you you probably enjoy it more than I get to,

for the community, but it can't solve the problem

of the, of, you know, the urban ill that come with,

streams running through urban areas, and that those problems

exist. They need to be addressed.

And,

and the one... The place where we feel like we play

a role is helping people

understand the importance of clean healthy rivers. Because if people have a place to go to the river that that that you know, where they can replenish their souls, if you will.

They'll they'll they're they'll become stewards. They'll they'll appreciate the river in a away

they maybe never have. And so maybe you'll end up with

people who will begin to enforce that and help the

political

powers that be,

enforce the rules that

surrounds

use in urban areas. It's it's a v vaccine problem, and it's just something that has to be tackled

one day at a time. Yeah. Chad, Chad and I wanted to, you know, just put signs up. You... When... What you're saying is basically, there needs to be more education. Than needs to be... People need to be they need to know about how precious assist resources is and how to protect it and to be stewards of the land. And so Chad and I one of our projects we wanted to work on, and I guess we still are in the middle of is just putting up signs. You know, like, big metal signs that are you know, laser cut out and that just kinda educate people, like, hey. There's... This is a beneficiary, you know, this is a a a a habitat for really important species of salmon,

you know, please, you know, leave it as you found. You know, all that kind of stuff.

Well I think it's a neat idea.

I think it's a neat idea, but, you know, what I think is

if we get more people

to go out and fish,

we'll get... We'll have more conservation. Right. I mean, it's it's really funny, but but it it could be just as simple as that, Like, Right. Help people get introduced to the sport. It doesn't have to be fishing. It could be hunting. It could be

rafting, but but get people out

in a way that helps them move their needle

for... To become more of a.

Yeah. We So

we talked to Eli about possibly managing Bcc

as

as kind of like how the Mac cloud can certain rates your service does where there... It's ten Anglers day and you have to, you know, make reservations.

That may be a way to get more anglers on that water to appreciate this this particular waters should because the problem... The problem is where we have where the... You know,

the the average joe has access to this waters shed and where they're going after,

you know, Sam is is is pretty... It... It's a pretty finite amount of space you have, and it's also very treacherous to get get through. So accessibility is tough. But actually, it's easier to fish it on the on on the property than it is, you know, in the lower park region. So that might be something to think about. I don't know

fishing pressure wise

how that would work out. I think it would be okay if it was all catching and release obviously.

But that might be a way to kind of, like, get the local community a little more high visibility and what's going on or at least appreciate the upstream piece and wanna make a difference on the on the lower section that we see every day. I like your idea of the Qr codes too. Just on the sign, You know, like, having a Qr code that people could scan Great idea. I can get more information on that

tip... You know, that body of water, who's sponsoring it or what, you know, Okay. Yeah. Because that... I mean, the the the cleanup are are good, but it's not it's not addressing the problem, and I think sue. I agree with you, like, you... Yeah I think a lot of people,

at least me. I mean, I I started doing this podcast from a very very selfish place and kinda turned into a conservation over time. Right? And Right. I think a lot of people that get into the sport don't get into sport because they wanna be conservation as they wanna just catch fucking fish.

And then you... And then as soon as you make the connection that

my my ability to catch fish is connected to the health of this

ecosystem that I'm standing in, then you start caring about the ecosystem.

You bet. You bet. I think from very television place.

But that's okay. Yeah. Totally. Absolutely okay. Yeah. And and, you know, how do you how do any of us learn anything? It's just it's

experiential. Yeah. Yeah.

My know it's a great idea. Hey, I just wanna do a shout out to for

Ken Gross and Sierra in Nevada a brewing company,

because, you know, they... In your community,

but but nationally,

our,

tremendous supporters of conservation and land conservation.

And and Big Chico Creek is a is a backyard project, but but their

support is

is strong and consistent. And I just...

I think we're lucky to have them as your supporters. Yeah. Is there anybody else you wanna mention while you're at it sue? There's just people that maybe get missed and and all this, you know, action that you, and all the great things you do is there some other plugs that you wanna make? Yeah. Go ahead Yeah. Well it real quick. We have fireworks

So

not knock yourself off.

What...

Well, you know, every one of our projects,

isn't done in a vacuum. We we always work

with partners in the area or with Ngos that have similar interest to to put these projects together.

And so I mentioned a couple, you know, with Cal out and with Smith River Alliance for Goose Creek.

We worked with North Coast regional land trust

on our Lower deer Creek Falls project.

We worked with,

Big Land trust and the...

Oh, my gosh. I can't think of the name of the Condo

organization with Little sir,

Gosh help me. Oh, so. That I'm the

the the,

Condo consultancy, they've... They've got a longer name than that I'm blank to. It's okay. And but but, you know,

we have...

We have...

It's it takes a village.

To

to make these things happen. And California

has a very capable

Ng community

that are really

making a difference on the landscape.

So I just wanted to... I didn't wanna let our time together go by without just, you know,

making sure people understand

the importance of

all of these

profits and the work they're doing for conservation. And you know, I didn't mention T you and I should

because T is a terrific

organization and there and they... They're doing a lot of work throughout the west.

And we have a,

our project on Mc Der Creek up at the Oregon Nevada border will will be done in partnership with them.

As is our project on

Antoine Valley Creek.

Up in Washington state working with the Ko tribe. And and so they we just haven't had a good fortune of working with Tin in California. But they're... But they they certainly are an organization

we're supporting as well.

Yeah. They the, they just worked on a repairing a diversion dam on Deer Creek and, you know, said they they blocked off the the water, and it was... They were trying to save, you know,

lamp rate yields and

any other species that was being trapped in there.

So they

they do do a lot. And we we try to have him on as much as possible to to talk about those projects.

And we have Yeah. We still have twenty minutes to to talk about whatever you want, because after that, I gotta go pick up.

The the two year old. So

what...

Where do you guys wanna go from here? Do you... You know, we... There other local place that we haven't really touched on, but maybe there's something else completely you guys wanna talk about, but the south fork of Ante loop Creek.

I think that's a, you know, that's another one that kinda nobody really talks about. And

it's funny because I saw that on this list, you know, prior to getting ready for this podcast. And

when I drive over Ante envelope, I look at it. I'm like gosh, it just looks Like, there's not a lot of water coming down that thing. You know? And I know all these and na streams that feed, the Sack are super important for the steel head that use them to spawn, the salmon that are going in there and and obviously, all the other different species that I'm not mentioning.

So maybe maybe talk a little bit about that because it it sounds like you guys just recently worked on on that one.

Yeah. And so, Josh, I'd like you to do that, But would you also mention, you know, Peter Mo, Doctor Peter Mo. Yes.

As

as, you know, the guru of fisheries for California

and probably, you know, beyond.

And, and Peter spent his

life, Trump and around those Sierra Nevada stream studying them and

and I'll tell you, he knows each and every one of them intimately, and

and it's really fun when

we mentioned a stream like South fork Ante Creek and peter chimes in with

how incredibly important it is. And any

I think it was on the?

What was... What's the peter story from the Gu, Josh?

With the Wall wrote? Yes.

The the the, the the endemic koala roach

found, of course, nowhere else, but in the La River and and, Peter helped identify that.

Well, so So when we're are on our board meeting... Right? We're in our board meeting, we're presenting

the the project to our board and

and and we're in Josh is listing all the important species for this project, and and Peter's like, well, don't forget about the Wall roach. Mh. And

and and he's he's just in our Google. And so when it came to South Canada Creek. He he was thrilled to see us working on this, and and,

Josh, was the project manager who did that project, and,

and

Josh tell us about it.

Yeah. And and and Ante Creek is part of this great agent of these Sierra nevada foot streams that drain into the Sacramento,

Big Chico, Deer Creek, Mill Creek, View Creek, Ante Creek. And and together, they're so important for

the,

recovery of upper Sacramento,

salmon and steel head.

And and you're right that a lot of them have some degraded reaches along their lower stretches. And and ante Creek is is no exception there And there's also really

pristine habitat and the upstream reaches, and we were fortunate that we were able to acquire

about twelve hundred acres along two and a half miles of South fork Ante

inside the last National forest, and this is just upstream from the State wildlife area. And and this was a a piece to property that had been owned by a family that actually used to ride their horses over from Chico

to vacation over here and and let their horses

graves and and,

they got to a point where the property didn't make sense from anymore, and they were gonna sell it. And

we had the chance to to work with the family before they sold it to someone that would have carved it up into a bunch of branch.

And we are successful in conveying that property

to the forest service.

Utilizing funding from the Land water conservation fund. Sue had mentioned earlier,

protecting a a two and a half mile pristine reach a South fork ante that has some giant o growth Ponder Pines along it. And and it's not just fisheries project as we talked about earlier, there's a lot of dual benefits.

And there's incredible biodiversity

on this property. As evidenced by the fact that that O r seven, California's first Wolf in decades in decades. Right.

Spent an entire winter denny on this property and and forging across the property.

When when you guys

get a property font from a,

you know, privately owned party, like, the ones you're describing.

Is there...

These folks in terms of their

their their moral code or their ethical code. Is there is there a piece of is there... Is fill throughout... Fill... Full lamp there be kind of baked into their kinda worldview view? Does... Is that one? There... No. Okay. No. Well, I should say,

it's it's everything.

You know, because we buy from

willing sellers, and they...

So it ranges from people who just wanna get a top dollar for their property. Yeah.

All the way to,

to people who

have a shared vision. But but really, at the end of the day,

it's all business, and

and people are selling their land because they wanna sell their land because they wanna get out of it and

put their

money somewhere else.

So...

And and that's really where

where our business model

succeeds is, you know, we are,

first and foremost,

we're conservation, but we're business people, and we

we give people a business like transaction, because people can't sit around and wait

two years or three years or four years for some public funding entity to cough up some funding.

You know, we we go in. We make a

a deal,

and we agree on a purchase and and then we buy it. There's no

pussy putting around. And

and that's that's what,

sellers need.

And and then there's the rare

entity that says, I don't I don't mind waiting because I like what you guys are doing. But mostly,

it's just a straight on arm length

business transaction.

Yeah. Okay. We had things. We had Peter Mo on the show a little while ago, and he's he's fantastic. We... I we need to get him on the show just multiple times here in the near future. I just wanna do... You know what I wanna do is I wanna do one with him on

the bait fish in the Sacramento River and go through the life history of each one of them. Yeah. Yeah. He'd be probably... Oh, that would be so great. Yeah.

Peter... Well, Peter is

is a gem that, you know, he's he's one of a kind. Yeah. And

Yeah. Yeah. I sure hope you do it. Well, and and same with you guys. We would love to have you back on the show and and hear more about some of these projects and and kinda, you know, where you're at and and where you're heading and just I... This is great. I learned a ton, and and I know our listeners did.

So how

how can people help you know, that are out there listening. How how can they help,

maybe w or some of these other organizations. Yeah. You guys like donor micro donation kind of funded or is it... Or is I'll say big big deal. They do have a link on their website that you can go purchase, you know, you donate so much and then you get some items back, But, okay, go ahead sue you. You bet. Well, well, so

just at at the a highest level, we're funded

from multiple sources, you know, whether it's from our land transactions or whether it's from foundations, but really, we depend on individual donors most of all. And

And but there is lots of ways to help

Western Rivers

and and money's is one of them, but but, you know, signing up

to get our newsletter, You know, go to our website and sign up and and just learn more about what we're doing.

We're likely working on a river you love.

And

and tag us,

when you... On your social media, when you take a really cool picture of a or of a river,

tag Western Rivers, we'd love it.

Because for us,

amplifying our message through your social media is is a huge gift and helping just spread the word.

And and, of course, you know, give, but, you know, give to Western Rivers, give the T you, give the cal out

but but

organizations that are doing this kind of work

need your support. And whether it's five dollars or five thousand dollars, every dollar matters. And and so I I just encourage you to

to to think about doing that. And

and I know if you go to our website, you'll see that, you know, you can, like, do a birthday, fundraiser

on Facebook. I mean, there's lots of fun fun ways to help

the organizations you care about. And so so get involved, and and it's easy to do. You can do it sit at home on your, you know,

on the website, and and you'll you'll make a real difference.

Alright cool. I'm sitting here looking at the report from the field,

Western Children's Conservative two thousand eighteen to two thousand and nineteen and it's fantastic. I mean, I... I might probably try to read the whole thing again tonight. I mean, It's just great pictures.

Great stories.

So is is that is stuff like that gonna be in the the newsletter that it goes out. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. You know, Josh and I are, we're so down the weeds. Like, we just love what we do and we're we're, you know, we love talking about deals and all that kind of stuff. But our but our newsletter,

is it does a great job. Like, with pictures, you can really see what we're doing and and the stories that go along with it.

And and, yeah, the report from the field,

I like to pick it up and read it. It's so beautiful and and inspiring if I do say so ourselves. You know? And I don't see a single ad either, which is awesome.

No. No ads for us. So... But, you know, you guys,

it's so fun talking to you guys and hanging out, and I really appreciate having the opportunity to to talk about Western Rivers and and Josh and I,

we we feel lucky going to work day to get to do what we do.

And and what makes it worth it

in in addition to just knowing we're we're having the impact we're having is is having people like you

appreciate it and and

and recognize the importance of our work as well. So thank you. No. I've been enjoying the outdoors on on hunting and fishing my whole life and and after, you know, doing this podcast with

Chad. I I realized just how much I don't know. You know, I've I've learned so much in the last three years

interviewing folks like you, and it's it's a been fantastic. And and then I've... I think we're hopefully bridging that gap of, you know, educating people and trying to do it just the best way we can to, you know, to improve on all these fisheries and the places that we love to go and pictures that we like to look at and

So thank you so much. I mean,

Chad and I got to experience the Salmon River a couple years ago, the middle fork of the Salmon on that hundred mile stretch, which was an amazing experience. We fished... We got to go up and fish with John Mc

on the h. This this last and right before Covid hit, and and

and so anyways, it's...

Yeah. I I just thank you guys for everything that you do. Thank you for all the work that you guys put in, including those people in the back that we had... That haven't been mentioned.

We're Thank you. Thank you. Well, and you know the h

is our project and that we protected the h from the park to the park,

And

and that's that's was probably our first

fish marble Mer at project that we ever did.

So I'm glad you got a chance to go up there. It's an amazing amazing stream.

Definitely.

I wanna, Yeah. Also thank Cal trout for the continued support. We really appreciate it and all

fish bio getting us the roof over our heads to which we bring this podcast to you guys.

Awesome. Well, thanks again, sue and Josh for your time.

Stay safe out there, and and, hopefully, we can have you back on or somebody from your team back on to... Talk about more exciting projects in the future.

That'd be great. Thanks for making this possible you guys. You're you're awesome.

Thank you. You've been a lot of fun. Josh for real. Thank you now. Appreciate it.

Alright. We'll go pick up your two year old. Yeah

Before the the missus gets mad.

If you guys like this episode, please leave us a review on your podcast app.

And we still have some hats hats for sale. Hats. There's stats. Yep. Go go buy a hat. Yep. You. Alright. Thanks, guys. Till next. Okay. Take care. Alright. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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