The Unspawned Documentary - NCGASA's James Stone

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innovative science based work by becoming a member or donating today at cal dot org. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Marvelous life fishing podcast I'm your host, Nick Hanna. I'm here with a chad A Sin. I hope everybody's

doing well and out there or driving into efficient spot.

Got a fun episode today where we've got the Nor cal Guides, Sports and Association members, president, El President,

James Stone,

and then, Jd d Ritchie Jd d. How are you guys doing?

Good. How are you doing, guys? Thanks for holding. Still doing well. Good. Good. And I'd like to add that they're both calling in

remotely, so it might be... We might get some hiccups on the audio. We apologize in advance.

First questions,

are you... Have you guys been fishing?

No. And not too much. The stripe thing really hasn't been popping yet, and

it's making me a little bit

We need some water.

Yeah. Yeah.

I was on the coast last week still at fishing, and that was good, but, back here locally, Stripe kinda,

off to a slow start. Yeah.

How about you, James?

Well, I just got back yesterday from the P c,

on the Salmon advisory sub panel, so we just got shaping the ocean seasons,

and

finishing everything for the commercial and rec sectors

and the three alternatives.

So we'll be moving along and public comment

on March twenty fourth, I believe in Eureka rica, and then we'll be back up in Vancouver, Washington and April finalizing everything, but it looks like the ocean season

will be. On

April eleventh in San Francisco Fort Brag. Yeah they're supposed to be based on, like, all the numbers that they're projecting,

the Sacramento River is kinda gonna be a standout up. Right? Is that what I was reading?

Yeah. Absolutely. So what's going on is there a lot of climate impacts this year due to the low abundance of clam fish. And as you know, the coastal four year olds that are there are protected. And so inside of the model.

You take the abundance of the clam fish and the abundance of the sack fish. And as you allocate time to the

recreational sports sector and charter boats, and as you allocate time

to the commercial side,

every day that you input into the model for fishing starts taking away fish, and also has a direct algorithm

of how it impacts the clam with four year olds and the winter run, which are our listed fish.

And so just to make things brief

the amount of impacts that are gonna be hit by the commercial fisheries really shrank their time on the water in the north sectors,

which means that the sack fish as they come back down the coast from Oregon down south,

there's gonna be a lot of excess fish on the table. We're gonna make it into the rivers this year, which is a great thing for anyone that's fishing inland and a great thing for escape. We're looking at well over a quarter million sack adults coming back this year. And with jack's.

We could have upwards of three hundred thousand fish this year, which is gonna be a great thing for us. We need it. Wow, on paper. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly right. We hear we hear this all the time, and then the and then it comes around and we're like, where's the fish? Hey. James

You guys... I believe it was today. You posted the the sea lion post that it looks like there's just this ball boiling cauldron of of sea lions

eating.

Was that you guys? Or was that somebody else? Yeah. It it was us. That was up about British Columbia.

The sea lions are so abundant out in the ocean now from California North that they're wrecking havoc on all sorts of fisheries from British Columbus all the way down the Yeah. Whole Western sea board now. Yeah. The the thing, you know, I was I was kind of like...

Thrown by the numbers. They there they're pretty big numbers in terms of what you guys are saying is impacted. But what I'm curious about is, what is that in, you know, vis vis,

a percentage of say that if you stack that up against the commercial industry. On the same on the, you know, on the salmon. I mean, what what percentage of those two?

Let's say, the the same... The you, you know the... I mean, how many pounds of seam lion... The the Sea lions eat versus Yeah. The same mistake for making that a simple question, not a convoluted thing.

Yeah. No, from,

well, the numbers I do wanna be be clear, all we did was share a post from,

up in Canada. So they're the ones that posted all of those numbers of how many fish and how many pounds that they were all eating.

And I don't know what the Pin numbers are for seals and Sea lions, but I can tell you that from observation, amongst

commercial wreck and inland fishermen,

most,

if not, almost all

Fishermen field that the Pin are creating a problem on the West Coast, especially in our fisheries. Yeah. Jd and I were up visiting the check and the Smith together a few weeks back,

And you know, there were seals and sea lions inside of the Smith River,

and they're almost as daily now up there. They're having issues on other trips and other rivers.

Jd can speak to some of the other fisheries that he finishes up there and But everyone says that they are a problem. I don't know what their...

What their... You know, they considered out into the natural mortality. All I can tell you is

part of the P c model.

Contributes, I believe around a twenty percent mortality, natural mortality rate, and that could be from disease, pen, orc whale, sharks

or anything else that might try to eat a king Salmon. And our models only

good go after S.

So we really don't have any other models, I believe or any other way of of looking at that research except for somebody who might study a Penn directly.

Right. Yeah. I mean, well, we... We did do a penn episode. I was it last year, and Nick. And Yeah. And, you know, they they basically, you know, agreed that there's there's an impact and it probably needs to be managed, but there's no plans in California yet, as far as I remember.

But I mean, it's gonna be, you know, I I wouldn't personally wanna be trying to set that policy, especially in California, you know? Because seals like seals look like little dogs and they have dough eyes and, you know, re

relocation and things like that. Is is questionable in terms of its impact,

and

you know, I don't know if if shooting sea lines in the ocean open ocean in off the California coast is gonna be something that's politically. He never had blu,

Good, man.

Yeah. Well, it's see it's the same reason that we're about to list the mountain lions as endangered, right, because they look like cute little kitty cats.

Right.

Well, the thing that concerns me about

this sort of

reluctance to look into the Sea lion situation is, you know, back in the day, I guess in the eighteen hundred some time. That's when they got protected because they've been over half did... Yeah. They were.

Yep. And and I don't think of us here would disagree that that was a good plan back then. Not the note not the over harvesting, but the protecting in part. But now fast forward to the present day,

you've got these extremely high abundance of

of these marine mammals,

and we have a declined

situation in the the population of, their their main food source one of the main food sources. And so to me as a...

Sort of a, you know, lame. I guess you'd say,

it seems like the predator pray balances is out of whack.

And, but you you go to, like, the mouth of the Russian or something in the fall or the mask.

I mean, there's nine g sea lions sitting in the mouth of the rivers you think. God how does anything make it through that. Yeah. And and I think the fact that we have so many Sea lions up the feather up the American. I mean, we're getting sea lions up to the hatch.

And the we on the American. Yeah and Live oak can fit on the feather and Yeah Yeah. They're everywhere. And and to me that smack of, you know, hey. We... We're not finding enough food in the ocean. We gotta we gotta move Inland to

kinda see where where the gru is. And

Yeah. So, definitely seems like there's there's some issues that need to be addressed there.

Yeah. I mean, I will also point out that it's not the only... The only reason. You know, it's kind of, like... We can't point at them for everything like, we do stripe or what they tend to, but it's definitely

contributes. Right?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't think anybody saying that the the sea lions, the the major contributor to the decline of Salmon runs.

That's more human induced. But... Yeah. They're certainly becoming a a stronger factor. I think that's

fairly

accurate statement. Yeah. No. Definitely. The... Well, let's get in... Let's talk about the the main reason that we had you guys on the on the call and That's the talk about...

What? If you don't mind me interrupt, and I just want to add to it, I'm just looking at the Noah Fisheries page just so you know, And they were protected in nineteen seventy five after

legislation in nineteen seventy two for the M mma, the marine mammal protection. Act. Yep. And back then, the estimated

animals was around ninety thousand and nineteen seventy five. And according to the no fisheries page in two thousand eight, the estimated

population, was two hundred and eighty one thousand and in two thousand twelve, three hundred and six thousand and still rising. Whoa. Wow.

So there you go. We talked about that there. Yeah We talked about that on our episode of, on

and the reason why those numbers are dressed typically going up. I can't remember are you're looking up that number for the episode. No. Are you guys can find it on your with. Right.

Well,

where to start?

Un spawn. So that's the Main reason for our call with you guys today, and it's all this stuff is a death of a thousand cuts. Right. We're not really pointing to any one one organization or one thing that's causing the decline in Salmon or steel head populations up the, coastline of California, Oregon and Washington. But,

You guys recently came out with a, a documentary called Un spawned, which you got anybody that hasn't seen it. You can find it on

Facebook page for Nor cal Guides and Sports and Association or youtube. Where else James in at Youtube. You guys have a Youtube You what's up. Yeah. You Youtube it. Or

or they can find it on our website at n nc g a s a dot org.

So,

why why did you guys decide to put this documentary together?

I think

it was... Is born a frustration mainly.

Those of us have been around a little while,

going back to the early two thousands when we had

banner. I mean, absolutely banner or S runs in the central Valley.

We've seen

that whole trend go completely the other way. And and and our, you know, you guys all agree that our our fisheries have been in a...

Sharp decline. And there's little little spikes here and there, but

overall, we've been in a real downward spiral. And and you go back to two thousand two in the central Valley, we had

over seven hundred thousand shouldn't return.

Back to the the system.

And then by what was it two thousand eight, we had it closed fisheries. I mean, that's a that's a pretty quick turnaround. You know, it was under a hundred thousand fish that came back. I think the number that sticks on my head fifty nine thousand, and maybe James king

or not, but it was it was a low number. That was the whole whole central Valley.

And so start kinda tracing backwards and looking at... Okay. What's going on here. And and you said it, Chad, it's a death of a thousand cuts. I mean, there's no one thing. It's...

The one thing is human. It's probably if you had to say one thing. Right.

You know, we've had droughts. We've had ocean conditions. We've had massive water exports.

And

a lot of stuff keeps

keeps adding up. But, of course, we've had we've had dams, but on these rivers have blocked off all the spawning habitat in the old days anyway. But we've had phenomenal runs

since those dams have been put up going back to the

the early nineties like I'm talking about. So it... It's not like we're going back and talking about what your great great grandpa remembers. You know, it's it's it's a time that wasn't that long ago. And, yes, there's been a lot of lot of things that have gotten in the way of salmon recovery, and, like A like I mentioned drought and ocean and water exports and just human and cro in general.

But,

we we kinda started sniffing around saying, okay, what what happened?

What was going on in our

our hatch systems back then. And what's different now. And then when you start kinda uncovering the layers,

you find that

production has gone way down.

And then you start looking even deeper and you find out this stuff about how the car is don't go back into the river.

And at that part just blew my mind. And they you know, that you take

hatch tree,

you take your chin hook into the hatch or, sp them,

and then you do not put those car back into the river.

And that to me is the most absurd thing of all, I think. I be like, well, of course, your rivers aren't gonna be productive if you don't have that nutrient base. I mean, that was the whole thing is mother nature drew it up in the first place. Right? That Sam and dye in a river,

to

provide food not only for their own young, but from everything from... The trees to the birds. Yep. Yeah. There's... I read an article one time about den,

which is the study of tree rings, and they in the redwood woods, they could look at the the tree... The distance between tree rings and tell what years they had good salmon runs because all the tree. Yeah.

Blast was... And it was the bears dragon car up into the woods and all that stuff. So

anyway,

we just started kinda looking at all this stuff and and

start going well, what, for me again, start with that, not putting the Car back in going. Whoa. Whoa, what's what? You know, It just didn't make any sense, and then we just kept... Digging and you find out, all, these fish are getting. You know, they're keeping the... In most cases, the

the gates open at the hatch tree,

and

you know, they get their quota, I'd say just for an arbitrary number. You you need five thousand fish at a particular hatch treat to to get your

your egg quota, or your mitigation quota.

And then you would think that at that point, you just shut the gate and let those fish fall naturally.

And

but they... In, again, most cases, that's not at happening. And so that's kinda the the genesis all of all this. We started wow they're. They're shipping them up to

to Washington.

That's weird. And and so helps kinda the beginning of the

sniffing around and trying to figure out what's going on. Because, again,

we've seen everything just going into a tails spin generally. The the overall trend is a big downward

spiral.

And

and thought, well, maybe we can kinda get to the bottom of this and see what

see what's going on. And that's that's

in long winded nutshell kinda where this whole thing came about. Mh. And you're talking about the feather River hatch. Right? That that's the hatch you're referring to that keeps the gates

closed are open. Feather,

correct me if I'm wrong, James. American does it at Nam. Right? Yep. I mean, they actually... You know, and all all the hatch trees. There's a contract. There's an Mo, a memorandum of under. Standing between the department and American Canadian fisheries, and they actually service all nine state hatch. So they they send refrigeration trucks to all nine, and they actually encourage the department to pull these fish out, as well as Coleman and Livingston stu as well

however, we've seen, you know, a a turnaround at Coleman, a lot less fish are being cold at Coleman than used to. But, you know, I wanted to add Right too. So... Yeah. Say say with Mc calling as well, I mean, You know, they're they're they're not doing as many fish out in Mc colony,

but they do still call some fish down there, but it it is on a way smaller scale because they're mit

wanna have fish, East bay mud, wants fish at Mc River so that they don't interrupt their water operations.

You know, but one of the things I wanted to add to what Jd E said is,

you know,

we talk to, you know, thousands of anglers. It's not like we're just talking to a few anglers and it's too... This is documentary of, you know, when a couple of people wanted to do,

or not even just our board of directors. This was a documentary

of

frustration like Jd Said of thousands and thousands of our members that are fed up with the way that our system is ran.

And, unfortunately,

there's one major contributor to the decline of sam as you all know and would agree, and that's habitat.

We have no habitat. We have no water flow and temperature.

So if you're gonna get a get rid of the number one stress

that allows these fish to actually

create a sustainable

population,

well then you need to do some type of artificial propagation, which is the hatch trees in which they all know about. But it seems to us

that the only thing that we could control was looking into the hatch management.

And looking into the practices on ways that we could actually

advocate as an ng to better these systems

And I want all the listeners to know that this isn't something that we just went for and just made a documentary.

This is something we've been working on for over two years. This is something that we went to the department on multiple

occasions,

and asked questions

and tried to interview hatch managers off the record. This is stuff that we try to say, well, why are you doing this? And they just said, don't worry about it and turn a blind eye crickets.

No response.

This is something that last year in the California advisory council for Salmon Steel hadn't T, which I sit on as a member appointed by senator Maguire. I brought this to the department and formally agenda it last year on March twentieth. You can check the public records.

I provided the

documentation. I asked these questions

of everything that they un spawned, and they brought in nine different state employees who all have higher degrees than me in biology

and told me that we're wrong. We don't know what we're talking about. We're doing it for a specific reason,

and that we don't like Hatch fish. They're inferior.

They don't have fitness.

They don't it doesn't allow natural selection. And that they just went on and on and on about stuff that they all read in books at Humboldt State or Uc Davis or u dub or other

universities that are preaching to these younger

generations and these younger biologists

that had tree fisher inferior and that they're bad for systems. And so we've kind of got this stigma

on hatch fish, the past two decades

that we don't need them, and we need to do everything we can to manage against them. Well, in the central valley, if you do that on a system that I would see most people realize

is

you know, I don't wanna throw a number out, but is by far the major

majority of all finch that come back every year. If not,

almost all, I won't say all, but almost all,

there's no genetic proof that we have Pure strain while issued. So that's that's another reason that we really got detailed into this. And I want your listeners to, know, And especially, I hope the department will talk to you because they wouldn't talk us

and they did not wanna be part of this film. We asked nine different occasions between the Pi,

chief of fisheries, Ad of fish fish managers, hatch managers.

We had interviews set up with a few of them. They were told by their superiors to stand down to not be part of this film. They didn't wanna be part of it. We even gave them a final opportunity to try to explain their side in this video.

So that listeners could then make their own judgment up of why they do what they do, and we were told

by the by one region manager. I won't use his name, but we were told by him that this video is propaganda,

and this video has no scientific base, and we don't know what we're talking about. And so from there, we said, okay. Well, we've done everything we can as a as a non government

organization and to

at least

support the fisheries. We wanted to get this information out there so that people can make up their own mind of what's truly right and what's truly wrong.

There's a whole there's a whole bunch I wanna...

Go back over and what you guys just talked about.

First, what what was the outcome? I mean, you... It's only been out for a a couple days.

I've seen one video shared a thousand times on Facebook.

And you're getting comments from both sides. Obviously, you know, a lot of people that say, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We need more fish. We need more fish. It's, you know, this is common sense, and then another side saying, you know, let let the wild fish, you know, do their thing. Yeah

Well, here... Okay. So what are you guys... What are you guys hearing back from all that? Well, I'll I'll jump in first. I'm sure James got some stuff too. First of all, I haven't heard much of of that.

Division actually. It's... To me, it's been almost down,

almost... I guess you called party lines.

The Anglers

seem to be nearly a hundred percent in support of it,

and the folks on the other side, the, you know, the the department side,

don't seem real happy with it. And

what it's done though is it has really just in a few few short days,

really mobilized and and energized the

the an public.

And,

I mean, I'm getting calls, text, emails every day from people as far away as, you know, Northern Washington

going, hey. You guys are right. Oh, my gosh. The same thing's happening here, and

I had a guy from Portland today ordered a hat and a shirt, you know, from the organization wanting to represent up there. And so,

it is a a big snowball that is

sort of rolling unchecked downhill right now, and and who knows what the the total outcome is. But

It has certainly

sparked

some

membership.

It's like, a a membership drive almost, and and and people are getting they're getting fired up. So It'll... It's gonna be interesting the next, you know, few weeks for sure.

What, how about... I Yeah. I agree. A hundred percent, Jd.

You know, we we talked today about it, and I I can't believe the amount of people reach reaching out to me. I can't even get to my emails or my phone,

I've been home today and yesterday,

part day, just trying to catch up on just text emails and calls

about un spawn.

Everyone's calling and saying, it's about time someone says something. It's about time that somebody

says the truth. It's about time that we ask for our government to do what's right for the people that pay for their jobs and pay for their license

through our licenses.

I mean, we've been misrepresented

through politics. We politicized

fishing and hunting in this state for way too long. We need to start doing what's right for the people that are out there fishing and hunting. And

No. Unfortunately,

a lot of people have quit hunting and fishing because they feel like they've lost that voice. They feel like they're the... They'll never be heard. And in a lot of cases to be to it's very sad, but they're right. And more so on the hunting side than on the fishy side. But we have a tremendous amount of support. And I'm not exaggerating when I tell you I've received hundreds of emails. We've got hundreds of people signing up for our our newsletter

we've had, at least fifty plus members sign up in the last few days.

You know, and we we basically are just trying to tell people that we're trying to represent everyone, and we always have from day one.

And you know, we're getting an interview request. I... I've been asked to now speak up at humble state.

They want me to come up there and speak to their students up there and talk about, you know, our side of hatch

and viewpoints from the other side because they're being taught by some of their professors

about how they're just a horrible negative thing. And so I think that there's two sides to every story.

And, you know, you're gonna hear, and I've spoke to Cd w employees since the release and the day of the release. And, you know, there's there's different viewpoints on on different things. But if you wanted to break it down into you know, three different things we could talk about today. I would say that one would be hatch

production, the actual production issue. Two would be the actual closing of the gates and the c of these fish and where they go. And three would be, you know, if you wanted to briefly touch on our solution of the water management topic,

you know, and habitat topic.

But those are kind of the three things and why we relay relayed those as solutions at the end of our video.

Yeah.

Earlier, you said about... You were talking about the fitment

of of these, you know, the the the fitment being questionable on on hatch fish.

And you in this guy back to, you, I guess the root of it is really you know, the genetically pure fish or the drastic as you like to say, James.

Right. Okay. So

my understanding on on the fitment side is that

Yes,

hatch fish come back and spawn. And and, yes, there's there's not really any any, say jurassic fish.

However, those those hatch fish that survive a few generations

they've built in adapt

specific to that waters that are kind of, they've gotten outside with the hatch,

and it's it's good to keep those

arguably

wild, not wild, but definitely not hatch fish in the system.

So every time you release a bunch of,

you know, hatch fish that then return, they're diluting that that whole process

of of, it's not natural selection because we can't really have that in our in our water way anymore, but those I would say more resilient

fish that our hatch of hatch descent at some point,

as they

generational get adapted to that particular waters shed,

are

they're they're not as... What's the they're they're more I don't know, more resilient then say they're hatch,

they're hatch folks from, you know, the the most recent generation. So there is an argument to be made. They're in terms of letting those wild propagate. And so I I kinda, you know, I I I know I did a a really bad job and probably butcher the science of it, but that's kinda like, based on what I'm reading. That's my understanding of of why it's good to, you know, to keep those those populations down the hatch populations down

for that that reason.

But isn't... Yeah.

Isn't that...

I mean, you're talking just make sure I understand we're seeing Chad that you're talking about the offspring of

of some hatch fish

pull up short,

of the hatch spa naturally. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. And And then they're... You know, and they're and they're Pro doing the same thing.

Which they Yeah. They could have all been, you know, paired as as hatch fish down the lineage, but at some point, you know, arguably the second time they come up and go. They're kind of

genetically a little bit more resilient because they've actually made it to the... Out the ocean and back.

Yeah. Well, I would argue the, the one that

that... I mean, we we looked

in the r this year and saw a lot equipped fish. Yeah. And to me, that fish seems to be pretty resilient. You know? I mean, maybe he got truck down

or you know. Yeah. And I guess that... That's the point, Jd is, like, there's there's certain... The what... From what my understanding from what I'm reading... Even these these cliff fish, there's there's parts of their Dna,

that are allowing them giving them higher

higher levels of sur than other other fish in their cohort. You know what I'm saying? Now

did though... Is that because they're from, you know, genetically a better just a better stock?

I don't know. Be closer

closer to like, the yeah. And closer to the the jurassic,

you know, the the jurassic thing that that everybody wishes was still in the river. I guess, that's the point. You take a big cohort

some of those fish even though they're all hatch fish are gonna be closer to jurassic than others. Right? And that's the one. And that and that's Hs g chad in a nutshell. I mean, the Hatch Science review group. And that's exactly what they're trying to prove. They're trying to say

that, okay, we screwed up. We've got all these hatch fish now c with our with our old wild fish, not today, but back in the day, wild fish. And now

We have,

fish that spawning naturally with these fish.

Now we can't determine which are which. And so the only way that we can

control that as humans because we always as humans think that we know what's best over mother nature

over over God over anyone. We always think that we can control everything as human beings. So we start studying things and find ways to write papers and to write

a scientific

theory

that we can better these fish by pulling hatch fish out, and that's called P.

That's Ph o,

proportional hatch origin spawn.

And so that's what Hs g states that we will now only allow a P rate of, let's say percent. So if we have fifty thousand hatch origin fish come back, we need to call forty five thousand of them, ship them off on spawned and we'll only let five thousand go into the river and spawn with these so called natural spawning fish because we don't call them wild anymore. Our government doesn't call them wild anymore in the Central Valley

simply do because they know that there's no such thing as a jurassic fish anymore. Yeah. So now... I don't think

single biologist that wouldn't disagree with you on that.

Right. So now this Hs r g says you pull these the the p, you you you control that rate of hatch fish on the spawning grounds, and that's going to increase the fitness level of these fish like you're talking,

and going to make a stronger healthier pro in the future.

So now when you look at that and you look at the studies of Hs g. They said, okay,

we believe as biologists

that this could be done in thirty three generations. It'll only take ninety nine years

to manage this correctly. If we control this p rate,

then we'll be good to go in ninety nine years, we should have a more fit fish.

But now when you start looking at the studies in Washington,

who have now got three four more generations of fish under their belt under the same philosophy

and science,

than than we do,

in Washington. They're now determining that they're gonna go away from it because it hasn't worked. And now the new science up in Washington shows on bristol

conditions with perfect habitat,

perfect water flow, perfect water temperature,

and then you wrap Bristol Bay in a bubble with no pollution, no population change, no climate change.

Everything's

perfect.

K, which we know is basically impossible,

the new scientist up the the current scientist in Washington or Saint. If that is the case

under every river in the entire West Coast, you're looking closer to four to five hundred years

until that theory of creating a more fit fish and changing that structure of the genetic code into a better fish. So that's why we're questioning.

Does that even make sense to manage for my great great great great great great grandchildren that might have a fish,

and that's if we have bristol bay conditions with no water flow, no population change? But you look on the other side and they're

exporting mass amounts of water out our dealt.

It just increased with the Trump

administration, Gavin gonna build a tunnel. They're the saying population is gonna reach fifty million in the next ten years.

I mean, you start being a realist and start really looking at the system,

and I agree that Hs g

could work on a system like possibly...

I don't know. I I don't want to give you a river, but maybe a river that doesn't have a dam that doesn't have a population issue that doesn't have water demands from from humans

that has suitable habitat

and doesn't... And is not affected by drought climb... Change water temperature flow. It might work However, if you got any of those other stress, depths of a thousand cuts,

then you have to

properly manage according to those other stress, but The problem is is that our department

doesn't want to engage in water policy and doesn't wanna fight for water for our fish. And if you're not gonna do that, well then you at least need to give them a fight chance and let some fish spawn.

Yeah. I mean, it's a... You make a great point, James. I I understand what you're saying.

You know, Actually... I say I don't have three hundred years. I'm sorry.

Yeah. I don't have that kind of time. Well, it's just... This is you know, this is California,

and this is why this podcast is so, like, challenging sometimes for us is because there's so many freaking variables to deal with here. You know, if we can... If we can... If California can figure it out, it's kind of just a template for anything that gets... In a similar spot down the road. Real quick. We got... Lot of work to do. You're referencing Washington,

do you... I think it's important just for the listeners to... And just... Because I heard this for the first time, what the regulations are just for fishing for Salmon up in Washington. Are you guys familiar with with that?

Well, I mean, well there's there's any different

regulations. But Jd might be able to give you specifics. But the reason that you're starting to see a turn up there is simply due to the partnership that the fishermen are working with tribes up there. Right. So Washington tribes have a lot more voice that we do here. Yeah. And so because of those

partnerships, that's why you're starting to see the influence

of hatch

and support from tribes

and and settlers, European opinion settlers

working together to try to better the together. I I think that's a great point, James. And I think, you know, just to dig in it on on the the tribal thing a bit more is, you know,

politically how they're they're set up.

I think they they ins from a lot of

litigation that could happen in in certain cases. So that that actually is a good thing in the in these waters benefit because they can kind of you know, put some protections in place because they're not... A lot of... You know, they're... As you guys know, I mean, we can't put up nets, but they can, and there's... They have certain

afford that we we don't have. And in in this case, it actually helps when when you're able to pair you know, the Fishermen that are not a d indigenous to the to the area with with those tribes that also have, some legal protections that we don't. This goes much further than the river edge too into logging, You know? I mean, logging

was a big thing with their with them up there. I didn't. I didn't realize that

you know, that they had the power to shut rivers down. If they didn't mute their quota, you know, it's... Their steel had rivers up there were just completely getting shut down.

It's it's just crazy. You know, wild wild Salmon are released up there, you know, we're in your fishing barb. And if you catch... You normally only fish Salmon, I know if you can keep as a hatch fish. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, let why don't we... I I do wanna pick off those three things because they're they're kind of, you know, basically, little tent holes to the... I wanna know when the fish, when those gates were left open and fish were starting to be truck out? Because that hasn't always been the case? When did when did that start? And why is now? Why did they decide to truck them out of the out of the state?

You want me to go Shitty? Yeah. You you might as well run with that one?

Okay.

So I'm gonna try to be as quick as I can on this. So in nineteen ninety six,

Governor Pete Wilson,

decided sign an Mo with the department of efficient wildlife and Us fish wildlife life on the nine State hatch

and the two

street. And that was with a Mo with the food bank.

The the thought was is that in nineteen ninety six, we were starting to get big runs back in the central Valley

and the hatch managers,

they couldn't control the amount of fish. They were putting some fish car back in the water back then, but they literally couldn't deal with car.

And this has spawned

spawn fish only at that time. And they just couldn't deal with the six to eight thousand car that they were dealing with. So they signed an Mo with the food bank. The food bank in Sacramento would drive up. They would pick up

truckload of park salmon car after they spawned. They'd drive them back to Sacramento,

and they would lay them out and feed the homeless.

Great program,

applaud the government for figuring something out like that. Feeding people with fish that otherwise would be wasted if not returned to the river. I... I... Totally fine with that program.

Then they decided to sign an Mo with the Mad tribe

in Or to give them fish

because they... We're getting bigger returns. I applaud the department for doing that and giving them some fish if they need some fish for religious or

purposes.

No problem. Give them some fish too so that they've got some fish. But there's gotta number or you limp okay. And ups enough, you you've got everything you need for all of your purposes.

There is no rules

legislation or

commercial fishing rights or anything else that says that anyone... Is entitled to even one fish.

So in two thousand one, we had voluntary

agreements

with with these Mo with the department of fish and Wildlife and we started having these huge runs,

and they couldn't control the amount of fish that were coming back in the and into the into the race ways. And they always wanna try to do some fish in the beginning of the spawn, the middle of the spawn and the end of the spawn. So

you know, if you talk to some of their biologists, they'll say, well,

the reason that we fill the ladder full of fish is so that we can, you know, basically get five, six thousand fish in the ladder, use two thousand of them, but we can't put the rest of those fish back into the river because it's considered pollution

according to the state water control board under the clean Water act, four zero section four zero one.

So... They said, well, what are we gonna do with these fish? The food bank said, we can't take these fish.

So in two thousand two, when we eu utilized hundreds of thousands of fish, hundreds of thousands in two thousand two,

When we utilize these fish,

everyone's like, we can't use all of these. So the food bank sub contracted out with a company called American Canadian fisheries. They are a seafood

wholesaler

who sells fish for profit.

They're not doing anything wrong. They're a business. They're a private business that sells products.

They sell eggs, they sell meat, they sell

remnants, and then they take all the leftovers and they own a company called fat fish, and that's a dog food rendering plant. I've visited the facility in Bell, Washington.

And then all the excess goes into

fat fish and they make dog food out of it.

So this company is doing nothing wrong. They're a private business,

but they found a way to sub contract through an Mo

that was designed by Governor Wilson in a ninety six to feed the homeless

that is now

creating millions of dollars of profit for their private entity. And here's what's going on.

Now they decided to load the letters

load these fish into refrigeration trucks and to ship them up north, and it all started with some fish here some fish there, but then it started becoming on the regular for the past two decades.

And as they started shipping these fish up, they started coming down and visiting our facilities, the feather is the most guilty of all state hatch,

N is second Coleman is third. But all three central Valley hack treaties have been doing this for two decades.

And so then they started coming down and visiting, and the president of the company starts coming down and telling people

at our government, here's how I want you to kill these fish,

Here's how I want you to bleed these fish out.

And then bait companies were coming down and doing the same thing. And the reason why is because they wanted the quality of the eggs To be perfect.

Pristine

row.

Because they're doing this for free.

They're coming all the way down, shipping their trucks down fifty three foot refrigeration trucks that sit on sight

all week long and leave one to two times per week,

depending on how much spawning a hatch does, and then they take off for Washington.

And they are

making sure that these eggs are p eggs. Now we originally believe when we dug dug into this two years ago, that it was going all to the bait companies.

And specifically one in particular,

not to mention any names. It's irrelevant, but the point of that being is that when I visited the facility and spoke to the general manager

I mentioned that big company's name and he laughed, and he said,

that big company, They're the largest salmon egg producer in the world. They can only take ten thousand pounds of eggs a year.

Maybe fifteen thousand.

If we have a bunch of premium eggs. And I said, well, where do all the eggs go? He said we ship them to the European market. We sell them as caviar,

sushi grade in Europe, fifty to eighty percent of the eggs go over overseas

And I said, really, I'm all you bust might me making millions of dollars on this, and he said says, well, we have to. He said last year alone, he quoted me and another board member that was present with me. He said, we spent nine hundred and eighty three thousand dollars last year on shipping trucks and employees

down to California

and Oregon to pick up all these fish and eggs, and we had to bring home a hundred thousand pounds of eggs.

Otherwise, it wouldn't be worth it. Now I don't blame that company because I'm a businessman

myself. And if I was buying

gas,

boat payments, insurance and everything else and then charging my customers exactly what it cost me to go fishing.

Obviously, you're not a smart businessman.

So he's doing nothing wrong as being a private business. However, our government is allowing this to happen,

which is convenient for them because they don't wanna deal with the Car is another way.

And, you know, if anything, that money should come back to the hatch trees to build the hatch trees up, raise production, fix fish, fix the ladder. They don't even have a door on the Feather River ladder because it blew off in nineteen ninety seven in the high water flood.

And we said, why not put out a new door on? They said, a, now, we just, you know, we'll just call the fish

as they come in. And it's like, you gotta be kidding me. That's just crazy talk. So anyhow, getting back towards this is the been the process.

The Mo with the Mad tribe enterprise rancher

is the other fifty percent of of the of the people that get these fish from the feather river just speaking the Feather river.

And so they start giving them fish. Well, they started giving the enterprise rancher

so many fish that they couldn't even deal with it.

I mean, the the tribe there was going, thank you, but we don't need all these fish We just need some fish for religious and ceremonial purposes. A few thousand fish is great. That's that feeds everyone in the tribe

stalks their freezers full, and and that's that, but they gave them so many fish.

That they started giving them a away to anyone. Anyone that wants to show up, they start doing free salmon days. So then it gets even worse.

They can't even control the filet and cleaning of all these fish. So now the tribe

ships all of the fish up to American Canadian fisheries,

and the and American Canadian fisheries agrees to fillet all their fish out.

Take all the eggs,

and then they ship twenty five percent back to the tribe, already pre filet froze flash

in a box. And the only reason we know that is because for the past few years, we've went and got fish from them because they give them out to anyone. You don't have to have a fishing license, you just show up and you get seven filet and you're on your way. But what happens when warden comes to your house and you have seven king salmon filet from the Feather river.

And you don't have a fishing license. Well, that's over possession limit.

And we're violating the law

by doing that. So those were kind of the questions that we all kinda were like, this isn't right,

and that doesn't even lead me to the last point, which Jd brought up early in the podcast, which is, what about all the car in the river? We need these nutrients to be put back. Let's put these fish back in the river. And let's let's start doing

nutrient loads. He in in these areas and tri to where we need it to... For the trees and the birds and the plants and the animals and everything that relies on salmon. So this has all been going on for a little over

twenty five years since ninety six. However, it wasn't based under the name of Hs g until two thousand ten,

but Hs g conform right through and agreed and align this program to continue. Its paid. That's surprising,

given the fact that a lot of, like, even places up in Washington put a those fish back. You know, for all for all these good reasons that we're talking about, it's kinda surprised that they agreed agreed to that. One one one thing is when you mentioned those salmon eggs, Chad gave a ugly face. I don't think he's gonna have any salmon Roe and his sushi going going forward. Yeah. Don't go don't go to Paris. Don't go to Paris anymore and eat up Feather River king salmon eggs. So what's the the clean water act. So the clean water act prohibits, the fish being put back into the river?

That's correct. At a state water control board, I don't know what year that was. Somebody smarter than me can

can...

Elaborate on that, and, you know, maybe you could ask the department about that. But actually, a department employee is the one that pointed me to that document, and I have it at home.

And I read it one time, and I was just I was baffled. It it it it actually,

if I recall correctly, off memory,

it states something about a certain pound of fish that they're allowed to put back into the water.

And since their spring run program,

they already take the fish into the hatch tree and they put a floyd tag in their back, and then they put them back in the river in the river tube, and then the spring run swim around for about two extra months till they ripen it up and come back into the hatch for a second time,

those fish

count account

account for that

pollution pound.

And so they've already maxed

the maximum

allot that they're allowed to under the state water control board putting fish back into the river, and so they're not allowed to do that under state law. So now they found another way to just keep yank more fish out of the system. So they're counting live fish as pollution.

I believe so, Jd, and that's what how it was explained to me

by a hatch manager

when I was asking that question at a public meeting.

I believe that was last year in March, when that answer came back to us,

was they were counting that. And I'm more than happy to forward that information guys. I was gonna ask if you could. That would be great. Kind of ironic. We're talking about Wrong. Like we have to do another podcast just on the the... Fucking chain of custody for these fish once they of the hatch.

It's kind of my ironic. I'm talking about rotting Salmon in in the her dog in here just ripped one. Yeah. Sneak it Rod was like Rod Rod and prince bulldog inside.

M a, he might have feather River salmon and it's dog six to watch out. Dude. It's a possible... It's a real good possibility this day and age. Hot smells like Sandwich.

I also wanted to mention you guys mention about Washington and Oregon.

When I released the premier viewing of this film at the peak fm mcs sas,

in front of everyone, No fisheries was in the room, as well as some Cd w employees.

And the know of fisheries from Washington,

commented and said I'm baffled

that we don't put these car back in the river because I ran that program in Washington.

And although we believed in Washington at the time to remove these salmon

P

proportional origin, hatch origin salmon or spawn to remove them from the river was a good thing. We believed at the time. We only remove them from the river, killed them, and then we put their car back in Creek and tri,

to do nutrient loads in areas that needed to happen because it's the most important thing to the ecosystem. And I said, well, thank you for that. And I mean, that was a great comment.

Well, it seems so contradictory to me that we we have this

sort of...

Idea that I need to get back to these quote unquote wild fish. Yet. We don't have any dead fish in the river to give them a,

foundation for the. Exactly. That's what I was just thinking.

Yeah. That's... I guess it gets back down to California,

stakeholders and politics and everything. If I had to think about the, you know, why people... Why why the state doesn't want a bunch of x excess fish in system. It's probably because voters bitch about the smell of the smell coming into their, say our backyard.

That's probably what it boils down to.

Yeah. No. You're actually you're actually correct. That's what happened in two thousand two and three,

Or people or complaining about the smell. Of rotting salmon car in the river. And so... Well, it's like, we want our cake and eat it to. You know. Maybe we just need a a genetically,

scent free fish and if they could make a genetically scent free french bulldog, that'd be good too. Right pig.

It's it's something that I've I've seen myself. I mean, just look fishing the feather, you know, since two thousand.

I mean, we had... And and I'm just talking about steel head, like, we had incredible steel head runs showing up and and, you know, as early as September, and there was Salmon all throughout the low flow. Rotting everywhere and I remember my dog, you know,

looked down river and his legs are, like, going back and forth in the air and I'm like, oh, crap, You know, Rolling it he's he's... Yeah. He's rolling the sand. You know? And it's just part part of it. You know, but you just don't see that anymore at all. And the steel head aren't there at all that. I mean, they're there, but not as not as big and in and as early and in the numbers that they were. You know? No. You talked to everybody up and redding. The trout fisheries and steel had fisheries is gone. I mean, it's still around. Don't get me wrong, but it's not like it used to be. Yeah twenty years ago. You... Same thing you just commented on the feather. It's gone. Jd,

guided for his whole career on the American, that fisheries gone.

Salmon and steel head there because everything relies on salmon. It is the central

nucleus

of the ecosystem, And if you remove the nucleus of the ecosystem, hello biologist,

we're gonna have problems.

And that's where we're at. This brings up a interesting point about a little Alaska that Jd referred to and is in the...

Documentary and or I'm talking about the Yu, which is the one of the main trips to the feather and the fact that they closed that beneficiary down for Salmon for last twenty years, and you're still seeing the numbers

fall,

It's just it's it's weird. You would think that

by protect... That's it's a a protected fisheries. There's not a lot of harvesting going on in that tree that I know of, you know,

the fact that the numbers are down is just it's kinda of mind boggling. I mean, except for the fact if you go to dag gear and you look at that thing.

I mean, that just needs to be completely replaced. You know, the the the ladder that they have access to. I was there

one day, and I was seeing the salmon and try to jump, you know, twelve, thirteen feet up. It's up the, dam, you know, because the ladder was completely full of debris. There was no way for them to get up in there.

Yeah. That's last that was last year, and we called Us army corps of engineers who runs that damn and

They basically said they didn't have time or employees to go clear it out. And if we touched it, we're going to prison. So we're not allowed to touch it to help the salmon,

you know, they're considered practically and endangered species up there, well, threatened species up there, the spring run.

But, you know, when you talk to most of the biologists who work up there now.

I mean, you've got biologists that are up there doing study after study after study, spending millions of dollars

trying to figure out, man, I wonder why the u is just not coming back when it's got suitable habitat, and it's the coldest water that we have around. Yeah. And it's it... It's simple. I mean, you you don't have a good ladder system for those fish to get up and above, and the droughts

and the calling of the fish have killed all of the runs. You have to reorganize the Hub River. It's the only way fishing will ever come back and our kids will ever get a chance.

And by this type of management that's gonna take at a minimum according to California biologist

ninety nine more years since two thousand twelve, so we're looking at, you know, a solid, you know, what is that twenty one eleven. So twenty one eleven folks, We should have Salmon again in the Central Valley according to our biologists.

But if you talk to the Washington biologist,

we're looking a lot closer to twenty five ten. Well, the problem is is that Jd Ritchie son needs to take over his business in the next ten years. And the problem is that my son needs to take over my business in the next fifteen years. And

that's if if we even get runs to start fishing on now because, you know what? We're going out of business. All of us are. The guiding community was an eighty five million dollar business

for the central Valley for Salmon alone. We're down to five million dollars, But this isn't even about guides.

This isn't about even that economical output. This is about all people,

recreational fisherman, just the average

man and son, mother and daughter, being able to go down to their river. And to protect the publicly trusted resources that our government is responsible and protecting to make sure that every

generation has the opportunity

to go down and catch a fish in the river.

Jd, what you got?

I agree.

Well, look, let's talk about the the releases

for for a few minutes, we... You guys touched on that earlier in this podcast and then also in the un

documentary.

Talking water, water, water water, water not fish releases. So our management to be a little bit more clear there. Sorry. Yeah. So...

That's a whole another can of worms that you could do ten shows on. But We have talked about water management a lot in this and the the... I I think the biggest example was, you know, the Mc fish hatch,

pulsing their flows and getting, you know, obviously,

great

response from from doing that in in the numbers. I mean, show... The numbers show. Right? And all the other rivers that were struggling with water and in a drought situation. Mc columbia was there doing these pulse flows, you know, keeping the ladder shut and the fish in there. And they provided... Well, I don't know what the numbers are. You guys probably know better. The majority of

commercial fish or fish in in our valley. Right? Something something like that. Yeah. They had a big...

Well, was it they contribute. I think... I don't know about the numbers because seventy percent. Right? That's what I wanna say.

I don't think it was that. I... I I've got the numbers right here. Hold on.

Go ahead, Jd. Talk about water management. So anyway there's...

There's lots of lot of water

issues obviously. The the two that really affects Salmon are

the

lack of,

flow when these fish are migrating out.

You know, that that this makes a much more susceptible to pro probation from all kinds of critters.

And and Like think the drought years is really, really noticeable because

these fish are trying to make it out, you know, like on the sacramento where the flow almost wasn't even going anywhere. Like, just a long skinny lake, you know? And

so it's really important to have

pulls flows in the spring to push them out because when Fisher coming down, the Juvenile Sam coming down the Sacramento,

it's real easy for him to get sucked down, George And and the Delta across canal when we get open. And

then they get sucked into the main delta, the central delta, and just kinda get trained in there, and

their

out of that situation is almost nil. And and even if they do somehow get through all that maze of back and pumps and predators and warm water and all that, they make it out and survive out in the ocean. When they come back, they're confused because they started off as a sacramento river system fish. They got sucked over onto the san Joaquin side as as Juvenile.

Where do you imprint? You know? So Mh. That that becomes a huge thing. And then, of course, On the back end, when the fisher up spawning and we've had a history of, especially on the Sacramento,

getting them up on the reds and then because of

of you know, water

contract use downstream, they they cut the cut the flows after this bond and a lot of times they get left high and dry. So there... Beds the beds get left high and dry. Right? Right. Right. And so, again, there's your problem with just relying completely on trying to get a a natural

population going here. So

Yeah. It's it's a complicated complicated deal, and and that's that's kind of the short version of it. And there's a lot more turf than that. But, you know, need need high water in the spring and and at least consistent flow in the fall. I would say,

I'd rather see the water low in the fall and have them spawn

at a certain level and then just the flow remains the same instead of being dropped.

And then if you wanna get into more specific,

water stuff. You go to feather the river,

and you guys are familiar with their mel after bay and the infamous outlet hole there where the water comes back in. And for those of the of you that aren't, you got fu... Or excuse me. Or dam,

And the water that comes out of war dam because it's such... It's the tallest earth some dam in the country, I believe. And so you got lots of cold water coming out of there on a on a, you know, normal year. And it goes through that low flow channel.

And you and Nick, you were talking about fish and low flow. You know how that water's is cold in there.

Well, the feather river

gets diverted not too far below

or dam, and they send the the bulk of the water out into what is the thermal after bay, which is a real shallow

basin and its cheap purpose is to warm the water up for rice production. For rice production. Right? And

so then the the water that's now warm which was icy cold before it gets towed back into the river,

and

you've got a a hot river for most of its length. I mean, the low flow stays cool.

But below there, especially in the fall, in early winter it's it's it's hot. And so

one of the things that,

lot of agency or a lot of groups have been

advocating for is getting that re plumb.

And

that has to do with James, and correct me if I'm wrong. There the Fe relic licensing

was supposed to happen a while back, and they're kinda dragging their feet, but that was gonna be part of it. Correct? That's correct. It's in the two thousand seven settlement agreement. To that was settled among D

and the stakeholders

through Or, and they've failed to do it since two thousand seven. However, the new

information is our group, Golden State Salmon

Association, and a few others Pc

along with four local senators have written a letter to the legislation and D Carlos ne... Carla Ne and trying to get that removed from the settlement agreement to try to get that done in conjunction with the segregation we're to keep the spring running and full run separate. What what just at a high level, guys, what is what is rep plumb and entail?

It basically would be that the... The after bay, the thermal out outlet Yeah. That dumps the hot water back into the river would go away. They would shut that off, and they would make a canal to deliver water to agricultural users,

and

cold water would flow from the dam all the way down the low flow into the high channel which would now open up fourteen miles up to fourteen miles of new areas of spawning habitat

for natural spawning fish. But where am I gonna be able to sit stream side and watch a fist fight.

Between two guys that are touching tips and rubbing fuzzy butts along the outlet there.

That warm water's has been coming out of the outlet for years, and and there's been

Salmon spawning in the high flow going back to that two thousand mark. And then it kinda they kinda disappeared like, around two... The like, middle two thousands, like, two thousand and five, there just starting to be less, less, less Salmon spawning

down in that high flow. It's

I mean, is it because they closed those or kept the gates open and fish just weren't piling in, Like, they normally were? What why is that? Why? I mean,

why are those fish not down there anymore? Do you guys have any idea?

Go ahead, James. Well, I was gonna say that's probably a

conjunction of a couple of different things.

One is gonna be water temperature, right? On years like last year, man, we had water temperature. We had cold water

because the low flow was flowing so strong. There was so much cold water coming. That's right. They had it flowing four to six thousand

Cf. That's and then it went up to, like, seventy five hundred

for, like, three weeks,

and and it was... There was so much cold water. I mean, in, late September, early October, we were getting fifty five, fifty four degrees.

Sometimes,

south of the outlet hole, which was just amazing in the mornings. It was warming up to fifty nine, but we were getting really cold water down there. The negative was is that when you have that much flow coming down the low flow, the fish are gonna go all the way to the top. Yeah. So, you know, you know, the the state will say, oh, well, you know, the fish only come to the top because they're all hatch fish and they're all just coming to the ladder because they're homing in on the on the hatch. That's not true. The reason they're coming up there is because you've got huge flows, fish push on flows if you have a good cold flows, they're gonna push to the maximum

to the to the far ends of that flow. Mh. And when they find suitable habitat, water temperature

on areas that are gonna work then they stay.

The second reason is is our video, h a

hs r g and un spawned.

And the reason why is because they're pulling all these fish out,

Now back in the old days like you mentioned, they didn't pull as many fish out, and they would c up. The low flow with load full of fish. There was nowhere for them to spawn, so they would move down. And they'd moved down. And we call it c up. So they would start pushing back pushing back further further further further. And when you have a hundred and fifty thousand natural spawn in the river, Guess what. They're gonna have to spawn from the high flow channel, all the way to the low flow channel. But now that we keep let the ladder open, we just keep sucking them in like a vacuum cleaner, bunk them over the head and shipping them off, there's no... There's no reason for them to spawn anywhere else. Have you guys heard of the Salmon River in Oregon?

Yes. Yes.

Talk about that for a second.

Go ahead, Jenny. What what are you specifically talk... Well, it's just... I I don't know much about it, but I've recently heard that, in... It's kind of an example of taking a officially and just leaving in a alone and watching come back.

Oh, okay. Gotcha. Well,

I'm guessing they don't have quite the same

situation we have. I mean, we we talked about the... The Hub, You know, We we let that alone, and and that's got cold water too and lots of gravel. Yeah. And,

and that has not come back. Yep. So I... I'm I'm guessing... I don't know much about Sem, but,

I'm assuming they have a

little bit different system they're probably not a dam on the lower end of this the river and and all that. So... Right.

Plus, they... They don't have

you know, this complicated delta system that these fish have to navigate to and all the. The high hydro draw that sucks fish out. Like I was talking about earlier into the other parts of the delta and you get sort of mis imprint. I mean, there's there's

a lot of stuff that makes our system unique and and

Totally messed up. You know. I mean, it's it's that... I I guess that kinda

circles us back around to why we think that,

raising more fish makes sense and letting those face that we do have spawn

is that this is such a unique and,

completely human altered system. I mean, I look it's something like the Americans.

We have a dam at River mile twenty three with no passage.

Historically, the Chin didn't really spawn too much below the side of N dam. Because in the fall before the dams,

water was was warm and low. So they would push up higher to Mh. Find

cooler water.

And and so

the the fact that we have a dam right there. We've completely made this thing an artificial system,

and and the the sort to me, it's a pipe dream to try to get,

you know, some sort of wild. Spawning, you know, massive

population back without

without

enhancing it. Just doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, you could you could leave that thing alone, And, eventually, there would be nothing left in there. You know? Right. Yeah. I mean there's nothing in there with a hatch

I think that comparing the Salmon river to the feather or Central Valley is just completely inaccurate though. I mean, the Salmon River, if you're gonna compare it to any of our rivers as a wild and Scenic River, it would be the Smith. That's the only fisheries that I think that you could compare the the Salmon River in Oregon, you know, around the same,

you know, length,

you know, it's a coastal river that's, you know, under thirty, forty miles

from the ocean.

They're both protected under the Wild and Scenic Act. Right. Right. You know, they they both, you know, are are more closely similar. You know, I mean, we're comparing apples to apples, and I'm not gonna... Are apples to oranges. Yeah. I'm not gonna say that

you know,

I'm not gonna say that there's differences in every waters shed and that there could be different types of management for every waters shit. I totally agree with that and Jd Does too. We're just saying that, you know,

we're we're fishing at Mcdonald's.

And the Salmon and the Smith are closer to like, Morton. You know what I mean? So, you know, when when we're here at Mcdonald's, everything is, you know, hatch produced,

it's all about artificial propagation,

getting fish out to the commercial industry and the wreck sector and getting them back so that there's inland opportunities

and hatch fish. But, you know, even the the department knows that there's no such thing as a wild dress at fish in the system,

You know, there's been there's talks now of the commercial fleet trying to do a terminal fisheries down in the Delta and Bay where they start raising millions and millions of fish,

just to, catch them out in the ocean and then just to sweep them all up in the bay. I mean, that's the direction that some of these people are going because

No one no one believes

that there is going to be a future for Salmon in the Central valley. And, you know, to, you know, it's sad to say this, but we've gotta be honest with ourselves. Do we even want Salmon back in the Central Valley? I heard that discussion this last week at P c from an Oregon representative he said I've even made that recommendation to California.

Do you even want Salmon in the Central valley anymore? Because you're not managing the system like you do. And so if you do, you need to make two decisions. One, Do you just wanna have huge hatch production and huge hatch runs?

Everyone's happy and ship all your water south or two, Do you really wanna have a sustainable natural spawning?

You know,

population. And if you do then you're gonna have to engage in water politics,

but the state of California is never gonna do that. It's all about money. It's all about people lining each other's political campaigns

On both sides.

Yeah. And when you when you have a situation where the the drought takes takes effect for ten years and then hatch reproduction dropped in half and all these different, like, when we talk about death of a thousand cuts happening at one time it's just it's

It's not good. You know. No. I mean, and just doesn't make sense too as far as a management

on a management. And you gave you gave Props to Mc call Hatch and, you know, Bill Smith doing a great job down there. He's running the Hatch. He's a state employee. But let's be honest. I mean, the reason that Bill's able to do what he's doing is because his hands have been cut free because the mit.

East bay mud is the one that a lot of people should be thinking.

Because East bay mud is the mit that is saying to the state of California,

no. Our dam and hatch tree will be ran this way. We will raise this many fish. We will allow them to spot in our river. We we'll pulse our flows. We'll barge them, we'll truck them. We'll release them at night under the Golden gate. We'll study him, and we'll do the best sur

techniques that we can do so that we can produce the strongest fit fish and we'll get them back. And and that's because East bay mud wants water because the primary

source of their water comes from the Mc colony River. And I I used to live in the East Bay. I used still I grew up down there and the conquered Walnut Creek Lafayette area. And those areas

are high dollar areas

that know that they wanna protect their waters.

And so the only way they're gonna protect their waters shed is make sure that we have salmon. So And so one of the things that we're calling out on is, we're ready to start working with D

southern water contractors. We're ready to start talking to them because they're the ones that control or dam through D.

And it's the only way that we're gonna be able to get more fish and raise more fish. Right. Now on the Sacramento and the American,

again, it's a different system. That's controlled by bureau of reclamation, and those are both controlled by the federal government.

So like you said, the Salmon River, the Smith River, Mc colony River. Every river has a different factor, a different set of stress

and a different way that government state. Or federal is going to allow the operation of those hatch trees or allow the operation of that fisheries management under the Fisheries management plan.

Yeah. I'm looking at the Salmon River right now, and it's... It flows directly into this. See. So right there. Right.

It's a totally different thing, and then it's... It looks a lot shorter and doesn't have a big reservoir on it. So that... That's... Yeah, Like, game that's apples to oranges. But one of the things that just kinda

thought about with this whole wild fish

deal and and, you know, we gotta...

We gotta make sure we have wild fish, blah blah blah.

The the thing that seems to be ignored a lot is how

often over the years, our hatch trees have swapped fish.

Know, and there was times back in the day when the Mc call wasn't getting any fish. They would borrow some from. From the feather or... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and back and forth and all that, when I'm on the To

in the middle of Bristol Bay, Alaska every summer. You we catch one to two just at our lodge

adipose clip, S.

And so, I mean,

you can't even say the Tok pure wild anymore. You know? So I I don't know how you would think that,

you know, you're gonna be able to return the

the American, the feather, the Stack to. It's genetic state or it's it's drastic state of genetic purity. It just... To me, it doesn't... I I can't connect those dots. Yeah. You can't. I mean, and you kinda said it best in that in that video

in this documentary. You know, Look, there there's some fish right there. Look at them and and look at look at all the hatch reef fish with their fins clip just, you know, they went out.

Spent couple years out in the ocean

made the journey back through all these hardships.

You know what's wrong what's wrong with this fish? Is a survivor? You know? Yeah. We we weed out or not we, but mother nature weed out the the unfit ones. Right.

Well,

yeah, It just got I would I would rather trust mother nature than our government making decisions on Salmon.

Well, you guys, I'm glad you guys are doing what you're doing. You know,

thank you for your your efforts. James, you know, of course, you... I mean, I know you're just dude your at it. You know, you're a mad man,

your wife's gotta be a special lady, man and probably deal with all that all the crazy stuff that you're you're into, but,

thank you guys for taking the time. Just come on and explain this documentary. I think there was a lot of good nuggets in here that really didn't get mentioned in the in that movie. So there's probably gonna be... You could probably have to follow up with some different videos and and stuff on top of that. I know to you know, a lot of... There's been a lot of confusion and you when you read through some of the comments in your videos, you know, you can see that confusion and in some of the people. But, I'm I'm glad you guys are doing what you're doing,

keep up the good fight. You And thank you for your time to to come on and talk. Let's let's revamp and come back at this

at another time when when the dust is settling a little bit and see where we've gotten. Does that sound good?

Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for out. That's really appreciate it. Well, if you guys like this show,

please please jump on and and rate us, and and give us some comments, we'd love to hear your feedback of what you guys think about this and we can bring it up at a different time. So obviously, we're gonna we're gonna bring on some other people to talk about these issues. So we'd love to hear, you know, hear your responses and and hear your thoughts about it. So

thanks again, guys for your time. We really appreciate it again. Chad. Appreciate everything you do.

Yeah. Tight everybody.

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