Species Spotlight: Bonefish

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to an another exciting episode of the Barb life fishing podcast.

One of your hosts, Nick Can. We got chad on the line.

And, a couple other special guests,

Mike Larkin, who's already been on our show. He did a a spotlight, a species spotlight, excuse me, say that ten time fast.

On Tarp, and it was a super fun episode. I I learned a lot in regards to it. So we have them back and and our subject are gonna be bone fishing with us as well as Kayla,

Cat,

from her water supply fishing. How are you guys all doing?

Doing good. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. You too.

Well, thank you guys for for joining us and in these crazy wild times. I hope everybody on on and your family is is safe and

again, thank you for taking the time to come join us and and do this species spotlight on bone fish. I'm I'm excited. I know Mike's excited because he he loves to talk about bone fish too as well. So

Yeah.

Without further ado, Mike,

introduce yourself for those folks that

maybe you're just jumping on our show for the first time.

Sure. Sure. Sure. So I guess first thanks for having me second time. I don't know how many of your clients, or how many of the Yum ups sorry of podcast.

People come back a second time, but I feel honored to be honest a second time. I enjoy the Department world. But yeah... My name is Mike Larkin, and I'm fisheries Biologist just was very, very fortunate. I I, got my Phd

on bone interested

from the University of Miami.

University Miami had the bone and husband been vision research program.

And, Let me give my my age in my eighteen fifteen years ago out when I first came there.

And they... When they first started their funding, one of their primary funding sources was

selfish and Tu and unlimited, and they've actually changed their name recently to

selfish and tarp and trust. But I was one of two grad students. The first grad students they were funded. It was me and this other guy,

Robert Hump was the other one but... Anyway, I'm very fortunate

be involved with that on Bone station doing some of the early work on bone efficient.

And

have some round. And then it's ready, I'll start.

Yeah. I just kinda over some,

species

interest on Bone fish.

So... Yeah. So Yeah. Kinda break. I like that. I... When I when you first did the Tarp and you kinda of broke down the history of the tarp and, you know, fossil records,

Think that just that same same direction with the bone fun. Sure. Great. Great. Yeah. So we talked... Yeah. So,

So bone through bone guys guys guys.

Before we before we jump into it, I did Kayla? Sure. Did Kayla do an intro, I can't remember.

No. I didn't would you like me. I would like you to before we... Yeah. Before my, takes the mic. Okay. Awesome. Sounds good.

Yeah. Hi. Those letter listening. I'm Kayla Ko alma from her waters supply fishing,

trout and steel head guide in Northern California.

I have also a clearwater lodge guide,

located on pit tip number one

right before you get in the fall river remote. And,

yeah, Thank you so much for having me back on the show. I know these are pretty

unprecedented,

you know, crazy times, and I just hope that everyone's doing okay, and everyone's staying healthy and safe. And, I'm very excited to be a part of this podcast because, although I don't have as much

biological

scientific knowledge as Mike does about the fish.

I I do have some experiences chasing bone fish,

and kinda working the flat and a salt setting from

my background and growing up in Hawaii. So, yeah. I'm very excited to be a part of the podcast, and, I know I'm definitely gonna learn a lot to mike. Cool. Thank you.

Awesome. Thanks, Kayla. Yeah. You bet.

Okay. Mike. I wish I can up with money. But anyway, Anyway.

Yeah I love

Right

So,

I'll ahead and start about the the fossil record. So realized,

last time I talked about Tarp and Tarp, actually, their ancestors were found in the jurassic period.

But bone fish, were not not that far back. The first bone fish, the bone ancestors have showed up in a Cr period. So First, you have jurassic period, everyone knows about that, you know, jurassic park and the big dining.

And then after that is the vacation period,

which is about... So the jurassic about two hundred to one and forty five million years ago. And after that is a Cr period, which is a hundred and forty five to sixty five million years ago. And that's when the first funky sc mister

showed up. Now they... They weren't exactly like the the ones we received in. The the A abdul, the tom A abdul is Billy Fish for a day. They showed up about sixty five

million years ago. So what I think of it is, the first ancestors is a hundred and thirty six million years ago, then Abdul showed up sixty five million years ago. So that's seventy one

million years of above evolution. To get to the goldfish fish that when need fish sedan. I wow.

Yeah. Yeah. Really long time. And then, you know, I put it in in our perspective. Oh, one more thing I wanna point out,

that cr to create when he ancestors first showed up at the end of that, about sixty five million years ago. That's when a big meteor hit and destroyed most of the lights minutes. So the Bone

survive them. They survived that big ear hit, you know, and all that the dinosaurs, most of them dying and all that. And then,

so they survived that and let's you involved in the, I'll be able to see today. And then you put in perspective of the humans, you know, we just showed up

six million years ago. So the first humans

six million years ago. And the first bone fish,

sixty five million years ago. So they got... They've been around a lot longer than we have been. That's the point I'm trying to make it. Yeah.

Need that they've survived this long, you know,

And I looked at, you know, if you go the literature. They look... They kinda look similar to what we have, you know, the the ancestors that we pitch for today, but they much deeper bodied.

So they were more torpedo shade. They're... Now they're a little more streamlined and more skinny.

And compared what we saw, you know, back in the

period.

Were they bigger

in in general, like, other species of fish that, you know, survived that that big meteor that you're talking about, while the other

see species got wiped out, and those

survived and have evolved, it seems like animals have gotten smaller. Right? So do you know,

anything about that? Like, if they were business...

That's a great question then. I wish I could... Instant. So, really, I mean, the the bone ancestors have been about, you know, twenty to twenty three inches fork length. So they haven't been... They're about similar size to what we see today. But upon

that doesn't mean that they weren't bigger, or maybe someone just didn't find of fossil yet. You know, So I would like to keep you know, the positive add to attitude. Like, maybe they were bigger, but but maybe someone just didn't find a possible. There's somebody goes someone much low goes in the, finding the fossil, finding the right, you know, ideas at all can you having enough phones here to figure out what exactly it was?

Was it broken up. Now it's still rare that a perfect fossil is found. Usually find pieces of fragments. So. So

so right now, the current two says there were much tumor size or what we fish for today. But but that doesn't mean that big ones weren't out there. But what you think

I think the the fishermen and all of the says that the big ones are out there.

Yeah.

They're. A lot a lot of the guys that I talked to that.

Chase Bone fish for a living and and,

you know,

chase permit and tarp.

It's it's cool to hear them say, you know, if you were to strap a ten pound bone finish to a ten pound permit, you know, that bone fish would more than likely you know, pull the permit to death. You know, and and I never think of it. Think of it that way, You know, you think that permit or the the the bad animals of the sea out there for the flats, and that's that's the ones you wanna chase, but,

for anybody that has never, they'll know what a bump the is or is never caught one. You know, when we worked at the flash shop, we compared them to to steal it. They they are just hard fighting on amazing fish and the flat.

And, now, along with, you know, they don't jump, like a steel head does, they they make some amazing, amazing runs. And if you'd never kind of steel head or a bone fist. These are bucket list species that you definitely need to. To get out there in Chase.

And to describe what a... Well, how would you describe what a bone fish looks like, Mike, Is it... I... Because I... When I think of it or see it. It's almost like a a sucker right? That the mouth is kind of a downturn

Yeah

car like. Right? Yeah. It... Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it really just just basic feeder. You're right. The the bottom the mouse is on the on the bottom. But, you, you know, you talked about the the speed and the runs they make. And, really, that that... That's what

I find so interesting about. They're really designed for speed. I mean, I feel like their survival strategy is you can't eat me if you can't catch me. I mean, they got that big fork tail fast and sustained to make speed. If the ever a little closely their their Pe fins actually have a little ind end. So they can actually two a half this too. But, anyway, they they can put their Pe fin in auto ind end so it's completely streamlined. In their their their eyes. So if you touch my my son caught his first his bone fish. I like, I was like, I'll give you twenty bucks if you could touch the eye, but they had not seen an issue over their eyes. They have, like, like, like goggles. I mean, it's very, very streamlined. Along eyes It's not like you feel in as a bump. It's it's very, very shame. And they have no they have no spine, either, like, if... Like, if you catch a group or a snap,

you know, they... The spine and the do fin, a spine on the ankle, You know, spine in the pe fin

or, you know, some of the cat and so forth. So but bone fish... I mean, just spines are them so a predator hit... You know, a attacks it they get spoke with it. Well, both the finds, you know, they had dead more weight where bone fisher strategy is, you know, you can't You can't eat me if you can't if you can't catch me. So they.

Yeah.

And if fans will go down too. I mean, two have this too. I would want have to tune up, But, you know, they're do fan, you know, will go down and be very, very streamlined when they're whenever something at fast speeds,

and that's why it's so much fun when you... You know, when you hook them, They just, you know, that they you blink and you're already in your backing. I mean, it's just, like, why is this... Why is my final line aren't? Oh, because some in my You know.

Just not... An I I was like

experience it take real quick, friend of mine,

called a big... Like I guess, It was about eight pound Bone fish, at Bay. In his bull shark,

was chasing it. And we're, like, just just... We did kinda... He just kind of, like, my friend thought, he just kinda went all the line out just kinda wet it lose, and that shark because he couldn't catch it. I mean it's big, like, never foot.

It was long as we take the drag off, and, you know, glad that phone fist you was saying, Let somewhere asked she's some out there with a nine week fly line, and he was still able to outs swim that shark as long as we take off the drag off. But anyway, Wow. Wow. We yeah. Yeah. We don't we jumped ahead a little bit. One thing that, I think you're about to go into is the species of of bone fish.

Mike, And I didn't realize that there were different species of bone fish around the planet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, there's still... I'm gonna talk about, right now, eight different species of bone. Now there's still some research going on right now. Are there more bone fish species.

Some people say yes. Some people say no. But I'm gonna focus more on the the eighth that we know about. They're not being debated in the literature right now. So, I guess the first one I I'll talk about is A Voltage, which that really means white box. That's the... That's the one I gotta admit. I'm more familiar with the the Caribbean. It's different from Canada all the way to Brazil, but it's really really rare to get them off. You know, Nova Scotia and stuff like that. They're really found from Florida, the Trinidad. But in the Bahamas, the Caribbean,

that's the one that I'm almost familiar familiar with in and being in the Caribbean and being in Florida. And then also in the Caribbean, there's another species species I'll be them up through. It's really rare though. I've never seen one. I've only seen pictures of it.

But they have a bone fish with a do fin that that long, that last ray, the do fan as he elongated. It's like a tarp and. You guys remember that tarp that last... That do fan has, like, that last ray elongated. Yep. Yeah. Where both there's a feast of bone that has that too.

Found in both Atlantic and a Pacific.

But it's it's not in the Caribbean sea, but it's front in deeper water and I ever seen one, but they're they're out there.

And then there's A, I'm gonna... I might butcher for all these names. But anyway, A be s.

This is a Bone fish found in off of Southern California

in the Pacific and in Mexico.

I don't think they get very big. I think they maybe get to maybe two feet Max, I doubt even that big. I've seen pictures mostly, like, twelve inches,

fourteen inches.

But they're at in down in, like San Diego and then in and Baja and stuff like that. I think you're deeper water too. They're found in deep water.

And then in in Hawaii, I if you realize this when you're out there, Kayla, but there's there's two seats of bone in hawaii. Yeah. Definitely.

I did did you the A alabama Glass,

which is she has a round jaw.

The well jaw round as opposed to the A

Forgot, which has a sharp job. But I think the grass honor, from my understanding is more common in the on the flats in Hawaii, the shallow water. That's what you I I think most people are targeting in Hawaii. Yeah. Absolutely. That's... What's really interesting. And then the the difference

with those species,

do they have,

different appearances? Because I've I've been out there and I've noticed

you know, that as different, you know, school comes on to flat, and then they kind of break up, you know, and they go and feed and do their thing, and then you have pairs

you know, or or singles swimming around that summer

you know, green and they have, you know, these nice green kind of almost blue back. And then others are just

your, you know, I think your cookie cutter, like, silver and white, very shiny and goes like. So

I wonder if there's a correlation there between difference and genetics. I'm I'm not really sure though. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is. I'm seeing,

discussing different cohen and what her, but I I totally agree with you When I keep her... I was lucky to go to the kauai in my honeymoon in

bone push. And it was green. It just seems so odd to me to see a green bone.

So I'm used to sitting on more silver or more blend inning,

but this was a green torpedo coming at me. Right.

And it'll kind of, like their their camouflage

because it will kind of, you know, it'll blend in with with their wreath and it's surrounding, you know, directly. So it it makes it even harder to spot those, and then I think also to... You can sometimes

mistake

a spa on a on a bone fish of that color with another species species of fish. So you gotta you gotta be careful when you're targeting them.

But then there's is three more in in east Trying sea. There's somewhere more bone fish over there, I'll be Cor, in Be, I'll Be Argentina. But, I mean, I think they're in deeper channels over there. I'm not really That motivated the fish for them. When I first saw this list Was, like, okay. I take a bucket list. I'm gonna catch every single fish in this list. Front, You know, I'm not not

no. I want use pike fish form. Right? I don't wanna be fishing deep water bait fish form. That's there's anything wrong with that, but I would prefer to, you know, fish fishing a platform. But Yeah. Absolutely.

Makes them work exciting. And then, the last one is Be

Illegal leap,

which is that the one... It sound off the the Eastern Coast of Africa. Found off Australia. That's the one found in the space shell.

Too. So that one interests me, the the Ig face, I just went through eight piece of bone here an Ig just calls them bone fish. They don't distinguish between the species. So enable a world record for Bone fish, you know, it could be Most of them they were from Mach machine, A I'll be a lopez. But one of them, the one from Southwest Africa, a nineteen pounder, that that one was Be

I'll Illegal weakness. So it's a tough to pronounce. But Anyway. So that's certainly me one. I'd like, to... Of course, I go to station someday.

But also, that's you know, so that's nineteen pounds. I've never seen a records of

Avi Vol is the one in the Caribbean being that big.

Wait a minute. The Ig record for bone is nineteen pounds, and it was caught over there in the specials?

Well, same species to day shell does actually cost caught from it, Off Africa.

Yeah. We have seen species of catching and shells. So maybe gonna eat that.

Nineteen pound bone fish. I can't even, like, fathom. What the heck of nineteen Yeah bone fish would look like. That's an that's amazing. That's.

Literally insane. So I've... I've seen them around that size. You know, I I've I've fit with my family that are local over there. My uncle been fishing over there in his whole life, and, you know, I'll be walking a flat with him and

we've we've definitely seen them, you know, cruising and coming in through the channel onto to the flat to feed, and it literally looks like a baby shark is swimming in front of you. It it's insane. And I've... I've even had experiences where they've had gotten pretty close.

You know, within nine feet to where they're not gonna take your fly, but they're also not afraid of you either, And and I am, like, just my heart's is pounding because, like, you're so close to the fish that you know

is is a possible world record bone fish, and, you know, people tell you that they don't exist, then you're seeing it right in front of your eyes. So it's it's very, very cool.

There's no. No makes sense to us not afraid of you if they're that fast, You know, and it's not big. He's he's kinda you're kind of a dominant.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely like, well, because what happened was I saw it and and it just kept coming closer and closer and closer. And, like I said, my heart's racing. So I I kinda of touched my rod under my arm, and I had my sling pack And so I kind of went to reach for that because I had my gopro,

in the pocket. And so I wanted to have proof that, you know, I'm not crazy. Like, this really does exist, and I wanted to flip it in the water And the second, I kinda moved my arm back, you know, like that. It it kinda turned saw me and then took off and, you know, I've I've had a few experiences with with those big bone fish like that, but

but, yeah, They're they're definitely there, which is if you go again. Let me know I'll help yeah. Right.

Well, we're gonna we're gonna come back to the these, catching or targeting some of these fish. But,

Did you wanna go into bone fish life cycle? My...

One of last thing is isn't since about the species If you wanna know you're fishing, you know, what species I just catch. You know, the first

the most dominant, you know, factor to determine that is where was it cost? You know, we're gonna need Well where you in on the... Oh, yeah. China We have of Map? That's the first thing. And then I'm just telling people big there of our traveling one around the world in Catch.

Where did you catch it? And then, also, what is the shape of the lower jaw? That's something for Hawaii and, other species around the world is it rounded or is it twenty? And then your key count because the lateral line scales. If you look at their scales one or why line if you count them, You know, is it one two three four. Anyway. I'm just given that information if someone's fortunate enough the travel around the world and all I call the about finish what species is it? You know? Yeah. That's very cool. Yeah. Perfect.

So... And now I'll going to the kinda life cycle phones is show... Anthony a, a quick story too How we first find out that they spun off to. So,

I was a grad student we're,

tracking bone fish, and we we put these

these pads in them, they give off of pinging. We can't hear it and the fish can't hear it, and it gets off of pinging, and then we put devices in the water that could that can listen to it. And we put them my on this game bay off of miami, and we picked you piggyback with another group that was doing,

exploration happened. So they put their,

I call them listing devices. They put their listing devices out in the reef, We put odds on the flags and all that. We're looking at how the fish move with different tides and insulin and so forth. And then they put theirs out in the wreath. They wanna look in more long distance movements with the the gray snap. And we worked closely with them And anyway, we've tagged a bunch of the bone fish, but these little pain tags in them. There's actually a video of me putting a tag and a fish on Youtube if you ever, like, Google are, like, locking Bone fish to describe it. But anyway, we so I do out, you know, we you're go, collect today, that would go down would pick up these instruments

down on them and find out what fish went buy,

and we kept getting the data back. And, you know, you're on the field, you know, okay. Fish number eight thirty two. Fish number eight thirty three. So I'm like, alright, Cool. Whatever. We go back to the the lab and went down on the next day I'm like, a wait, but that wasn't a great snap. That was a that was a phone. So it was just it was interesting that we kind of stumbled on by putting... We're out the wreath

which we thought we're tracking

great snap or we're were actually tracking phones.

So during the new moon, they would make these migrations out to the reef and in areas where we're picking them up as they were getting paying up there with these tags.

So it's kinda a need. We kinda discovered that they move offshore. We are the... I mean, their Larvae, they just left those several Larvae.

And when a first hatch from the egg, There was a lot of research done this like seventy. When a first hatch from the egg, there they're their Larvae, they very susceptible the changes in.

So we kinda already knew that they were spawning

offshore in some areas where the sw is really stable. Like, if you spun off Miami, like near shore, bi game Bay and the pie... Every tide change is a difference fluidity.

Anyway, we kinda knew that already, but it was funny that we you know, it kept getting the the tag data of these fish moving offshore. So this is when we first discovered it. And then since then, you know, people have really built on that information and been able to track it more and put Gopro pros and go swimming with them. But but, anyway, this was, like, fifteen, fifteen years ago. But so they move offshore, and then they des, and then that that left los syphilis is an eel looking larvae. It looks And they shared with a lady fish and Tarp and eel. You know, it's a very long skinny

clear looking Larvae. And I was also collecting bone fish up the beaches in Miami, and I could actually, rule like, more, like, one inch one bone fish, and I could I could age them. You can actually take out there all and too many days old they are, and see when they settled them. And, so there lot about forty days old. They settled in florida about forty days old. And if you, you know, that's a pretty long time period. So we really believe that these developers are coming from Cuba

or Central America. The bulk are supporting their supplying most of the bone the keys are coming from.

Other areas. And then it... It's really something we've kinda got used to an in South Florida, like, a sp lobster. They have had nine month larva cycle. So the sp lobster you died for and collect in the keys comes from Brazil,

So anyway,

we do a lot work on this, with permit... Permit have a shorter duration. So we found that those are coming from the permit settling in in the keys are primarily coming from the drive tubing. But voltage have a walls reliable span.

Anyway, it's gonna to keep in mind, we think that they are coming from Cuba and Mexico and and other areas.

And

so they they they settle, and then they move into North shore habitat.

And then, you know, they settle in the flats whether the sea grass said,

side

bay side.

And then, and then we also though I work with with aging them. I'm trying out that they, at least the once in Florida, and most of my work has been done in in in Florida. And they look to twenty one years old which was interesting. We guys knew that they're long long live, but twenty one years are certainly

surprising.

And I guess, one... Nothing I point out inch interesting about their growth is the Pi bone fish,

they blow they're larger than the than the male bone fish,

And

they're everybody's reason for that too, because, like, female, you know, the the think of, they need that bigger body cavity to whole more egg. So, you know, there the more eggs actually produce the more

more success you could have three production. So I think of it, like, They're, like,

eggs is marble, like, how many marble can you put in a,

in a, you know, a coffee cup versus how many can you put the bucket? You know? So so females whereas...

With males, you know, sperm is never really space limited, You know, They only they... Egg to to contain. So anyway, positioning at the the females are... They they're actually... So we catch I would guess that

at least the ones I've seen those world record bone fish, because, unfortunately, I...

Some of the ones in the keys and the I was

it would be involved with them. So I was working on an agent growth study, but some of them died and and when they're being weighed and so forth. And all the ones I've seen have been

female.

So the

that is interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Mike, I I have a quick question for you. So we're we're kind of going into detail about this life cycle. And,

what I wanna know is at what point

does a bone fish go from

let's say, like, a Juvenile aisle or a sub adult to a mature adult. Like, how how many years have they been living already when they make that

transition?

Oh, good question. Yeah. That's about three to three to four years?

When that you make this position. So right about... So in they're... I'm kinda looking at my my speaker here, that's roughly...

That's roughly about a an eighteen or the twenty inch fork length. Bone in the keys in the keys. And so when they're juvenile, and I'm assuming, like, are they hanging out near shore and, like, in shallow and then as they get older and mature adults, is that when they're hitting channels and going into deeper waters or what what does that look like for them?

No. That's a great question. Is that. We found some

Juvenile, I could say, bo a year or less, but they're really

I think we haven't really answered that question. Yet. We found some. Like, If not someone of the beaches in Miami,

some our people found some and some of the some of the they the the beaches are common habitat as well as back in Florida bay. But we really haven't found... So they they kinda of the why come in and settle

on the beach beaches and other way back in the back country. Mh. You. But we haven't found

the model load Yet. So the population we have. Fact we're doing a work. We estimate doing is about,

about three hundred own fish in the in the fisheries. So the that the guys are fishing for. I'm sorry. Three hundred thousand, three hundred thousand

bone fish. We did some survey estimates and visual surveys, some based on the area we have. So... But to bought those three hundred thousand fishing a fisheries,

has to be five hundred to six hundred thousand Juvenile somewhere.

Because they have a high mortality rate, especially when you're young. Alright. Now you can eat them I'm on an ethanol tomorrow. Right? But

so

we still found the big...

Me, yeah. We think we did find some up north too. We did a lot tagging up of, like, the middle Coast of Florida. We found some Off there and tag them. We have even recaptured down in the keys, but

They also... The small they are the higher a mortality rate. So they... That could either be a a factor that too. K. So the adults, the adults, they go offshore. That's when they spawn, and then they... The other eggs will hatch.

And these larvae will make... Basically be make... Their... They last forty days. Right? Is that what you're saying? So a forty days, they they take their time to kinda make back to the insure areas and kinda feed and grow, and then the whole process starts all over again where they go back out to the the. Is that is that right? And might getting kind... Yeah. Okay. Back on forty days in Florida, the Bahamas they found them as much as fifty six days old when they first sell there... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in Florida, we on forty days and then Bahamas.

Fifty six days. Yeah. Yeah.

And so since on the topic of, of bonnie in the life cycle,

I've always been pulled that bonnie

is a window

from November to May. Mike, is that is that true? Or is...

Yeah. I'm more specific.

What more October to

April, got seen in the keys. But, yeah. I mean, I when it's primarily when wintertime spawning. So I think you're you're close enough there. Yeah. When your time

spawning. Is sorry So in fact, one thing I when I'm doing to it's twenty... So we did this tagging project. Right? We had over eight thousand fish tag,

almost five hundred fish were captured.

So

so you get some some inch interesting insights with these fish.

So, like, being this summertime,

you know, We will... I guess first of all, I don't wanna of old timers tell me. You know, the big bone. They're out deep water, they don't come in to the class one is time. You know, They're out somewhere else. We don't know where they are. Well, we've done that was a tagging, you know, we're And then... Let's say, in August, you you take a fish it's ten pounds. You catch that same fish

in December,

it's twelve pounds. What they're really catching is they're catching the same fish, but they're catching them when they're spawning and they they can gain up to twenty percent or more. What's with the eggs with the with the milk from the from the from the males from the sperm. So it's just funny the daily saw, you know, bigger sore really, I mean, those guys are, like, the... If they're going for an record, I would definitely tag the wouldn't on, because the fisher... Literally wait Wait, they're they're heavier. They're you're catching the same fish you wouldn't the summer,

but with they're full rolling and spawning, you know, especially beginning them when they're pre spawning, you know.

So it was just funny because we're tagging fish. I'm like, you're catching the same fish.

That, you know, you're catching in summertime.

It's just in the the same fish has a significant more weight. And these your guys gonna put them on scales, you know, put them in net and wang him so I I trust they took accurate your weights on them. So There's this something that's sound interesting. I think so they. When I swam, they get a along more weight.

So it's not like that they're... All these fish were gonna come off of the the shelves through the flats and go out to open water at the same time. They kinda all do it at at different times. Is that what yeah kind of understanding?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Interesting.

So, Mike, I have a question for you. So if you have a school of bunk fish... And they're coming in through the channel and, you know, they're they're coming in, and they're, you know, getting on the flat. Let's say, you know, there's a school of maybe, like, forty or

fifty bone fish. And they're there's, you know, various sizes

are you gonna find most of the time that the bigger guys are gonna be leading in the front because they want the first, you know, first sids and first access to food? Or do you think they're gonna be hanging out more towards the back

you know, in in case of predators and that and that sort of,

you know,

scenario.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. I don't know. I really have the data to answer that. Except for one time, I got I got lucky in them. Bahamas, and I found a huge cool, like, five hundred bone fish against some mangrove shoreline, and it was these lemon shark,

that were that were patrol them And definitely a bigger fish were way up in the mangrove and the smaller ones were cut out in the fringes.

But so I did see that with with that case. And I couldn't catch the bigger one. I can't lose them in the mangrove. So I just settle for the little ones that you. But but yeah. I don't I don't... That's your a question, Kayla. I don't know if from... And even when I see a school I you just cast, you know, just whatever I'll take whatever fish hits it first. Right. Right. Yeah. But I know and because I'm trying to visualize, you know, it it... Of what it looks like in my head, and I guess, you know, I mean, to be honest, a lot of the time when you're in that situation and you throw your pride

see, you know, a couple of fish from that school or the whole school just kinda of turn.

I mean, your heart's racing. I think that's kind of the last thing you're thinking about, and, definitely, you have the mentality of, you know, I'm gonna take to take what I can. Right?

The So, yeah. I was I was just wondering, like, with their behavior, you know, are they gonna are they gonna, you know, take on some of those, like, characteristics of, you know, I'm I'm the big, you know, male or female, you know, in the school or in this group. So I'm gonna hang, you know, and position and myself strategically,

for specific reason.

But. You know, if if I'm on a flat, and I I catch a bone fish,

and, you know, I don't have a scale with me, can what...

How how could I go about, you know, getting a good estimation of how old this is and possibly what what the weight of the box fish would be.

Yeah. That's that's a great question, because you catch a big both. You wanna know. To wait. Right. Right? You don't wanna... Because everyone, you know if someone says you estimate it, it's then they're not gonna believe you. You know? So...

No. We all we all know that that story grows by the end of the day too. Yeah. Yeah.

I always keep

I use a bog grip somewhere whether it's in my tire box or somewhere on a boat or something to have it. But... So the options I recommend is if... So I wouldn't do the the whip thing because you could drop it or you could damage to draw all the fish. I wouldn't ask actually you whip them. What what we do is we a wait a real... So Frank I, first of all, we a real soft net. You know, you don't wanna a real stiff net that's gonna cut into their fans or or knock out their scales. You can weigh the fish in the net, and then just subtract the weight of the. Of the of the net.

Another thing is,

there's that... What's called the wood equation, and it works really well for bone fish. It's... If you know the the inches, the gi,

gi squared times fork length

divided by eight hundred. I've explored them. And I came up with my own equation for bone to estimate the weight based on the earth in a fork length. And it my own equation, I it was like, it was, like, one or two percent more accurate and it required calculate.

I'll like forget it. It's pointless. So so they'll so the question equation that Ge squared times fork length,

divided by eight hundred will give you a good ballpark of the the weight. In pounds. I would not use a for tarp, but that was the equation It's noise based on

two cones put together. So, like, a football shaped fish, like, a tuna,

bone fish. So anyway, I would definitely

take a gi measurement if you have, I think a fork length Yeah.

We use that Good. We use that for steel. And it's... It is pretty it is pretty accurate. It's our case where it, you know, it won't be. But go back to what you said about fork length. I think that's an important

We need it to something we need to talk about because a lot of people think you need to measure all the way to the very tip of the tail. But what you're talking about is measured from the nose to the inside fork of the tail. Right? Is that correct? You know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I usually wanna talk about Bone because Talk about Forklift length. Because actually they're... They... If you go by, total length, people forget their up upper low with their tail it's a little bit longer than the bottom one.

Yeah like... Or what if I got knit off or something. I just always talk bone fish fork length right on the node to right where that pork starts in the in the tail. That's your best

bone. Let's talk about the morphology of these fish a little bit, the shape and and their feeding strategy.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, absolutely so they're definitely Authentic Feeder. So first, and I can also go into their

their vision too. So

so as we talk about order, you know, they're they're very streamlined, you know, they're they're their strategy is, you know, how do we... I can avoid predictions because you... You can't catch me. You know, And they definitely have that that that mouth on the on the bottom there. And then they're...

So really, if you look at their the diet studies, they're really primarily

clams, crab, shrimp, and and in in the foreign keys, a lot of lot of fish too.

So but they're... So I talked about tarp their television vision changes.

But

Selfish fish is different. Their color vision so far that we know from what we've seen from Gi Bone fish and adult bone fish. These are samples again take from the party keys. The car vision does not change.

But as I talked about before also with Carpet and they

fish out stem cells in her eye. So they can they can change, you know, their color vision, they can change

the distribution of where the the vision is located within her eye. So in Bo are young, about one or roughly over overboard at posted to the two years old,

their their phone is really focused on...

Their vision is really focused on in front of them

and behind them. And then after about a, a a year of life, their vision... The this is very on what the distribution of the vision themselves and their eye,

after to that, they focus more and downward and then and and around them. I think is that the first year of life, they their vision is focused in front of them behind them because they're more feeding more more in a water that's what we believe. When they're really young, They're just settled from the level stage

they're picking off whether it's till plank in or whatever they can find up in the water.

But then after that, their vision changes the more focused in front of them and down in front of them and around them.

And then

the color they see is really they're Hold phenomenal. So they can see... Of legacy colors

better than weekend. So we really,

except except for red. So we have Rfp television vision is blue,

Green and red, and it's kind of a a mix of those three.

Like, if you if you ever get in photography, those are really what your sense target, blue, green and red and it's the mix of those three.

Was bone

have a a multiple

peak vision color,

So I'm gonna rambling them off here, and they have peak vision at purple,

white blue, dark green, chart truth, and light yellow. I mean, they payments see color extremely well, except for red. But that's because red is quickly absorbed in the marine environment, red is essentially black to them in their environment. So you you only need to waste car vision on that. So they can see color good in weekend, and they can also see uv white, which we cannot see. So I always think of you'd be, like a dark dark dark,

purple. And we really don't know

why does he you'd be white? Maybe there some piece fish can actually reflect you be right for communication.

But the rear... I think the reason that Don't see uv be white. Is one is it's very bonded in the clearwater water they in.

And two, it's like, it's all the place. So a still way of, like, a crab or a shrimp or something like that. It it's it doesn't...

It's not giving off, Uv light. So it actually a soul out of it will stand out. So they give like a curtain of, like, Uv like everywhere. But then there's this this spray item that is that is... You know, looks like out like a sore thumb. It'll walk Uv right around it. So I think that that Uv wide vision gives them a big big benefit to find those those crabs of shrimp even small fish that they eat. So

that's interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. I wrote I wrote those colors down. So you said purple dark green, light blue and and light yellow and then uv light. So in my mind is fly tire. I'm immediately thinking like, hey Are they used the colors that I wanna incorporate and into my fly. You know And do I wanna add add some of those new

there's new Uv materials that are out there. So If you... Got my my fly box right in front of me, next too, and I'm I'm thinking the exact same thing. I'm comparing what I have off to what might be saying

have you experimented with that or any at all, Mic? Or is it is it more important? Do you think to to, kinda match that,

bait that they might be... They might be eating whether it's a crab shrimp fish?

What what are you thinking in in your

Opinion I I really like Chart truth.

Even though, you know, it stands out, but I know they see it so that chart truth color, which is very obviously, very common,

you know, for for for fly fishermen. But

You know, I... Because I know I know they see it, and I like, like, use some some blue colors too, because I know they see it. And but a lot of times, I'll be honest with a lot of times I grow,

I recommend

they're that...

Had you did a quan fly. It looks like cold fish, because it was a study years ago, that bone, when it gets about three years old.

So before that, today feed a lot of, they feet on shrimp and and and crap. But then after that, after three years old in the keys,

they really started to out tote this. So it's a really, the quan flies is a really good tote fish since busy.

But, you know, I don't really... In my opinion, people may disagree. I don't put a whole lot of...

Stressed into having my fly is, like, exactly like, a priority item. In my... From my experience phishing form, I think it's more important to have something it's not gonna land like a brick, You know, and I gotta splash out the place and just get it get in front of them, get in the bottom, and then and then go from there and and

then quickly Yeah. You beat... You so what I was gonna say. I mean, and that's... I was gonna mention that later on in the show. And we start talking about tactics is, you know, when you you find phone fist on the flats. And their tails are out of water. You don't wanna come in with a heavy fly and slap it down in front of them Right? You wanna have something that's kinda light that's gonna land softly and not sp them. Whereas you're with, you know, over Kayla neck of the woods and hawaii,

it might be a little bit different. You might wanna have some kind of more weighted flies to get down, you know, if you're fishing some deeper water or whatever the situation might be I think,

the weight of your flies is gonna be even more important. Right?

Yeah. I mean, I I totally agree. And you know, I I think in addition to that, I... In my box, I mean, I'm looking at it right now in front of me. I I have various

pattern with different weights

and different sizes. So

for that exact purpose. If I am fishing a flat, and I know that the tide is changing, and the water's is gonna be a little more shallow, and I'm... Or it's, like, you said, Nick you're targeting fish that are tailing, you definitely want

in my opinion, a smaller,

lighter

pattern

that you can easily, you know, sneak,

you know, and as a good presentation for those fish versus, you know, fishing, let's say, a channel

when you know that there's maybe, like, a high tide,

you know, at where you're

finishing for bigger bone fish, you might want something a little bit heavier where, you know, that presentation or that's why hitting the water in the thinking, it might not be as disruptive or spoof those fish.

Yeah. You guys wanna, Have a couple more things about the research and then and you guys can go... You want the... We can talk about the the task going all that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keep going man.

That's all. Interesting stuff, but the, I guess, I wanted to say a few more things where gets too right doing of the tackle of stuff, but, yeah, so I was very fortunate again, worked on a a bump fish titan project. This is the second one. There was one on the seventies,

about two hundred fish tag, but they didn't have me. Didn't have any recapture for us portion up,

in the portuguese of keys and, you know, off Miami. We had over eight thousand mil tag, who's the five hundred recapture. So kinda the the relay and summarize,

those results we found out from from tag Bone.

To the person thing that jumps out to me is, forty percent of the recapture

were recaptured on the same exact flat where they were repay. Whether it's the next day or whether it's two years later, So I just... I like to tell fishermen, you know, for the to really that result. If you're you're fishing and you see bone fish on that flat.

I would go back to that flat again. And I would get back to flat again. You know, I mean, because they they certainly... They have a very high degree what's called site fidelity. They come to the same flats over and over again. Now they don't... You know, stay there. They have huge home ranges. They're constantly you'll to other flats and other channels and stuff. But they frequently return to the same one.

And everything thing I was interesting about the tiger results receptors. So that was on the same exact flat. Forty percent of pepsi. So about fifty percent of the pastures

took place within two miles,

of where they were tagged. So you wanna to, you know, so I would... You know, if you find voltage on one flat, I would check out the nearby flats. You know, they seem to come back to those same areas, you know, over and over again. So

But then there's a a fully... Another dimension,

ten percent were captured

little captured over fifteen miles from when they were tagged. So, I guess if We can kinda think of it this way, they come to the same flats over and over again the feed, but they travel very large distances. I mean, we fish going from Miami down to the down to the lower keys,

and then lower keys up to Miami. They'll they'll travel. And we had two bone fish.

Deborah were captured... I'm sorry they were tagged in Florida keys

and recaptured in Andrew Island Bahamas.

So that's over a hundred and eighty miles away

in over nine hundred feet feet

And just take... So when I first got that, so I got the phone call, Someone is over in Scott. I never forget name Brian Harris was over in Andrew Song. I was like hey. He called the number on it. He was over there. Like I, I called when a tag dolphins. I'm like, you did. Like, What car was it. Like, I I didn't I didn't believe him at first. I'm like, yeah gotta You gotta you gotta send me a picture the tag. You gotta send me a copy of your passport, because I wanna make sure that you're were action the bahamas when you say you were and I didn't believe it. And then the second one happened,

six months later. And then then they started tagging couple years later in Hawaii, and a bone moving between the islands and Hawaii. So it just goes to show that these bone are capable to make very long distance movement.

Over very, very deep one. No. I don't think they're in the bottom. I think they stay up in the water column.

In fact, That kinda builds in a the Florida keys some old time marlin fish joke like, like, Bow are the best state for Marlin. They use

that name?

You know, now that I I didn't poll the first, but, you know if they're migrating, you know, across the gulf stream. I have no dust my or eating bone when they can't. Do you think they're they're doing that in one Z twos? Or are they doing it and in pods or... I think it's going pods in in schools. Yeah. Yeah. Because this increase the survival rate. If you're going over there by yourself. You're not gonna make it. Know I mean Right

Well I think they're definitely going in large large schools and and something pods

especially one in What's going on there. No. I have no doubt that they go to Andrew and other line ones too.

Because there's a lot of

caveats going to tagging, you know, is the fish... Does the tags stay on the fish? Is it recaptured? Is it reported?

You know, it is a fish could be, you know, me all Bahamas is someone that never somebody to write it down or doesn't know how to call, You know, We weren't really preferred now how they've done a lot more tagging in the Bahamas, and that's that's drone level, But but anyway, It was just really interesting that they make those long distance movements there. Over to Bahamas.

K kayla. Did you wanna add any having a question. Yeah. I wanted to talk, but we haven't, touched on it as the the slime on the bone fish, And I think we were talking a little bit about the the eyes and stuff like that, but in the shape. But,

I wanted to to bring that because I think it's interesting, and I I don't... I'm sure Mike has an answer for it. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Don't moving.

I done to do this so I wanted yeah. Yeah. That christmas some space. I know it's it's... And I'm I'm guilty of a two,

of of weighing my vision in that, But I think you can really avoid that. If some of the agriculture people have found if you use a real soft net. They call a a baby neck, because it's similar, like, a a baby's blanket. Some of the aqua folks. And I was able to get one of those is really softness that, really, and They also don't really

remove as much slime as kinda of the harder ones. I'll kinda cut into it and just scrape it off.

But, yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, they definitely need that salon production. So if you could That's why if you could... If if you could even avoid netting him, just, you know, just grab with your hand if if you can. Or if you do using that, you'd be very soft and forgiving net.

So that's a protection piece to the... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fish that's fine.

Yeah, prevent infection and all that. So... Yeah. Yeah. So the more you could reduce that, You know, if ignore... The more slime you can keep on them the better. And and also, the main... That main thing with with phones. What I don't think is more significant and it's air exposure.

You know, So... Because, you know, you just caught a big bump fist. You wanna get a picture of it. You wanna get that whatever the green shot and all that. The way we had to set up on our,

our Miami boat.

We had a cooler,

which was, you know, heavy my way. But wait this big old core and and a live well and they snow. We would have a fill the water. You catch a bone, who be pop the core, we would turn on the live well. Since therefore, and like why black have that now too. You can put them in a live well, We keep your shrimp or whatever

keep them move that way, you know, they're recovering, and you can get your camera ready. You can get your... You know, make sure everything's ready for the photo and all that, Take your picture, put them back, and then

release still minimize, try to keep them in the air for... Because it was study done. If they if they are out of water for more than a more than a minute. Their survival rate is very low.

So the more you can you minimize that air exposure to them, the better. Right. Absolutely.

I've been seeing a lot lot of that on the bone and Tarp and trust,

Instagram I they've been talking about the

mortality rate, a this basically, it's, like, two out of five release fish or, you, you know, don't make it or something like that. And that's... Has a lot to do with just

us keeping them out of the water to get too long or... Right? And I mean, that's the that's the amazing main problem. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta teach my kids. I'm like, give a drink, I give a drink. You know if they catch the fish. Keep it in the water. You know, I call it giving it a drink. And this is silly way to keep them in the water. You know? Of course, of course, phone keep. You might have a shark come buy. So I recommend putting them or when it it becomes on hooks right there. And you, you know, you want... I'll be honest, if you wanna get a photo of it. Right? But we are fortunate way to thor or a live to put it in. But, yeah. Try to minimize eric's exposure. I did. But now, I mean, I wouldn't stay with Bone. Is that with everything. I'm sure with the the charge you guys catch as well, but, like, permit absolutely. Probably permanently we removed from the water. We just keep those in the water, but that... You know, yeah, I get remove behind the pot fish. In the water anyway. But yeah. The more you can minimize the air exposure that. Better... Another other thing so my take quick sure, my wife's first and the only bone fish. She ever caught was with me. And I was still busy taking photos, you know, and we kept the the tour and all that and and then she released it, and then it went right into the mouth of a lemon shark. Like I didn't even realize this was a.

Ten.

That might be the last

me. I don't know. But I

kidding

should you great experience and just have of a horrible ending. So what do we see the lemon coming selling anyway. Let wanna to make his look around first too. You know, you're you got your... Put him in on, take a picture, put him back in the alive will look around, you know, there sharks in the area. We'll go to a different area,

you know, don't just voice them blindly. Whatever we can do to, you know, I increase survivors ship. Because it's too important to catch once. Right? You wanna catch them again and again. It's not the reasons Right? I wanna catch them again. And again, he had know.

Yeah. I'm it Again. And again. And again. Yeah. Mike jump into it him, man. What's you said you did a bunch of research on,

the catch ratio for for bone and tournaments? What what did you. What did you find either Anglers wants to know.

Yeah.

So,

so there was a great dataset set. Though in Alm armada,

ever since nineteen fifty eight,

there's been,

four

bone fish tournament.

So there was june the fall...

They call an All tackle like it.

Like, one in the sell it this, two and a fall, tuna Spring, the two in a fall, One of them is All tackle, you can use bait, you can use.

Fly most of the are trips for bait,

you could use you know, a jig or something. And then in the fall of the fly only. And then in the spring doing the same thing. It was an all tackle, which you use whatever gear you want, most of them,

ending then the spring knows a fly only.

So and these were great. I mean, they started in nineteen sixty eight,

and they fish the same area

year after year. They had very strict start time and stop time. You fish indiana, you have to be in my distance.

You can away from this point. You have to be back at the stock by this point. And the docks almost mistake keep could the whole time when they had a leading room from... I mid move within in a miles. So you're doing that these guys finished the same area, a year a year.

And they made sure that they took place

the same

think time every year. For example, the spring fly was always occurred week in April. So there was some consistency of when it took play.

So was a great

great dataset set in the night. This I don't lights my presentation, I pulled out an

information out.

But anyway, what I wanna go into now is really the the factors there significant that contribute to catching a bone fish or not. So Analyzes two ways.

One of them is... And I won't really go the mask, because I think I really repeat you guys to speak. But anyway,

the first way I analyze it is ortho

pot, yes or no. Some really a no bone fish on a trip. It was a zero. If there was a bone caught, it was a one, whether it was whether it was one or whether it was fifty bone. It was a one. So I analyzed it, like, in a binary sentence to zero one and to see what factors were significant. I'll through the factors in minute.

And secondly I analyze it was, when a bone was caught. What were the factors that Contributed to catching

multiple bonuses.

So meaning, okay. So,

I all those trips for bone was caught What was the difference between catching one bone first, catching two, catching three, catching pen and so forth. So the factors that I analyzed were

packed a whole, you know, it flies, and bait,

then it was spinning gear.

Season? Is it, you know, spring of falls, they're different there that likes to catch rate.

Anger experience and I got anger experience because I knew...

Okay. Who was in the... What was the name of the individual that is determined.

So I knew how many times do they fish these tournaments.

So, like, like, John Smith's, fish ish, fifty times,

they whatever fish ten times. So that's how I had the anger experience, but a number of times they fish these times.

I knew guide experience. The same way. I looked at how many times do they fish these these tournaments?

And I knew I looked at team experience. So meaning the Anger getting and guide together, like, John and Matt fish together fifty times. How many times do they fish together in tournament.

No I had tackle, seasoned, anger experience, Scott experience and then together anger and god experience. Look at those factors?

Then I wanna know what there are factors that I was missing,

So I I interviewed six tournament participants. I asked them, what do you think of the factors that are most significant that impact the catch rate? They gave me the factors of moon phase

tied,

you know, the rising tide falling,

when? How much of the global in cloud cover.

And I was able to get all that data from nineteen ninety one to two thousand and ten, I was able to get moon phase because those easy data available on that. I then get tied from tide stations right there in Alm

I be able to get wind from weather stations right there also on I'm on.

In Cloud covered, believe we're not mask on their airport has a database where they every apple the mission hub.

So anyway, I had all those those factors, all those variables.

And I had all that data available

for all the cycles from nineteen ninety one

two thousand ten. So this was

one thousand two hundred and sixty

two bone fish trips, got a huge data set to work with. Over over a thousand trips to work with the analyze statement. One comes five thousand mom fish

tagged.

So

so I'm gonna you guys a second to think about it. So so

what are bone was caught not? What do you guys? Now if you get it wrong, you both have to take me fishing for Speed?

Wanna.

What do you think of the factors that contribute to a bone... What do you call a bone yes or no. What what the what do you think? With them know the top two most significant variables to whether a bone fish was caught or not pun the truth.

I think, personally,

from what I have experienced, I think factors that

make...

Make the biggest difference would be, in order,

moon phase and tide,

or or I guess, tide tide or moon phase. But I'm gonna go with those those two for sure.

Maybe maybe. Well. I

I was thinking like? The wind in the tide.

When

wins a really good one too.

Yeah. Alright. So so here's the results here. Go do a drum or whatever. But anyway So the focus was caught or not entry for that first analysis,

when deal was the most significant variable. So when the wind is blowing twenty knots or more,

the number of trips that catch a bone go down a lot. You know, in that win because I gotta... I think there's two variables there. Right? It it... I find it more difficult to spot them and real rough rough seas. Right. As well most, you know it's really difficult to cast to them. Whether they're fishing bait or fly, Yeah. I was I was gonna say, could that contribute to the experience of the Angle as as a variable as well

in that situation??

Well, well, the second most thing that there's weren't two available that was significant that that...

Impact with their bone... Whether a bone was caught yes or no on a trip. When was the first one, the second most significant was anger experience.

So... But... And I... Well, was was also thing I thought was the the ones that were not significant. Like, like, gear When I think, you know, these guys are fishing, these tournaments. It's not the first rodeo. Right? They definitely... They're fishing a tournament, they've caught see significant number of bone fish before and fly. Because I thought, you know, what the bone was not. I thought maybe the... The gear, the the bait would catch out warrant. But whether about this is caught yes or no, it was only wind

in anger experience.

Was also interesting thing I found that that god experience was not significant for this part of your mouth,

So, Always joke at it If you're, you're doing fishing for bone fish when experiencing experienced guide. And you don't catch one?

Blame yourself, not the guy. When the sound me. What this because anger experience is what's significant here. When if especially is less than why not, the blame herself not the guy whether you catch phone for or not.

That's interesting data.

That's the first analysis. Now the second one is

that this is actually had four variables that were seeing significant again. Why

this is

number of bone as you go. What's the difference. What are the factors that contribute more to catching one bone fish and catching twenty on a trip.

So

you guys wanna to take a shot at this? And the curious where you think there were actually four these that were they're were significant Oh, I'm so I'm so bad at test.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm gonna stick with with moon moon phase and inside. Because for me, like, that's that's, you know, what I plan all of my trips and, you know, all of my outing around. So I'm I'm gonna stick with that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, how about you over are you Nikki Y? Moon...

Yeah. Moon tied in season. We're we're gonna be intense, I guess, temperature probably, but sure.

Yeah. I looks like you guys tell me a still had trip. Or you could work to talk about that later. But that like.

The most significant variables for this

analysis this way he gets one bow fish or ten twenty thirty or whatever, but a number of bop. The first one was...

Most n was tackle.

I mean, the... What do you catch one mil fish ten or twenty, the... Really, the the bait guys were catching more. I know we don't like to admit that, but the bait guys were catching more bone and tournament than the than the fly guys.

Now the second most thing to be variable was god experience. That was to be, what do you catch one bone fish, whether do you catch twenty?

That really comes down to god experience is a huge variable there. So by that... And then, again, to remind you got experience since a number of times to those fish these guy's fish there

this tournament. But then three, which maybe you guys can help me answer is better, because I didn't really I know how to explain this. Number three is moon phase.

The it was around the full moon is when they catch the most and my thinking was maybe it's related to des spawning, pre spawning, but when they're fishing those tournaments around a full moon,

the capture they catching more bone. Well if you guys may insight, I'm curious to kayla, you bought that up phase, why did you think moon phase was specific because it is?

Yeah.

So to my understanding,

how moon phase plays a a significant part in salt fishing is that, you know, when... As the moon phase

goes through its cycle and it gets bigger, it... Has more light. Right? When it shines at night. Therefore, there's more light on the water. So as fish are,

you know, moving around or, you know, doing whatever they do during that that time period

they have... They they can see better, and therefore, they have a bigger window

to feed. So I... You know, I've heard of and how I've been raised

to think about is that, you know, after a full moon, the next day or maybe even the next couple days after that, depending on, of course, other variables

and scenarios. But, you know, the the fishing or the bike can be lower,

versus, like, I think maybe what you were talking about a second ago where

you know, you are about to get a full moon or you have the moon

that that's getting bigger because it's in that phase. And so those fish I I think just have more more light and a bigger window to to feed. And if they're they're on the bite and they're wanting the feed in your fishing for them, I think that that, you know, is self explanatory

in that sense as to why

People can be catching more at that time. And I mean, whenever I go back

home and fish with my family,

we have a pie chart

that that we look at, and those are the only two things we're really looking at. I guess, three d, You know, it it would be moon phase tide and and then when. So...

And and that moon phase determines what the tide is gonna be, like, Right? I mean, if we have a big full moon,

yeah. You're gonna you're gonna see a lot more

those bigger tides coming in, maybe more food is moving around

during that time. Right? The waves are crashing into the reefs or the flats and there's move more movement of food avail

They can access those flats a little bit better. They can go in deeper,

When the higher tide, they can go, you know, deeper into those pools and find, you know, food that hasn't been available or... It hasn't been picked through yet. Right.

Yeah. And, and, I mean, like, like, you're saying, Nick, that it... It's all due to my understanding, but a gravitational pool

between the moon and the earth and and that results and the tide, you know, and the moon having correlation. So

yeah. That's it's pretty scientific to stuff, but it is very interesting and

yeah. I mean, I I think full moon and tide,

those are definitely

a significant part of salt fishing in my opinion.

I know, you know, sometimes, like,

Fishermen or skeptical about it and say that it's not. But,

or that it's not significant and, you know, moon moon phase doesn't matter. It's kind of like a, a, an old, you know, myth or tail. But, you know, from my personal experience

and I think it's... What it's sounding like from Next is that it does make the difference.

Yeah. Yeah. So what some real quick. What do you catch one goldfish fish or ten or twenty number of bone fish. Tackle what's most of significant again, you know, they guys come couple more. Ji experience was number two in terms of significance,

moon phase was number three,

anger experience was number four, what make sense, the more, you know, anger experience the more bone tissue cats. So I didn't have... So that the high phase was not significant, but in when in my analysis, but it it may be, you know, correlated weighted with with moon phase there. So, like, I I actually found them... So maybe be tied together with the moon phase. But these guys were catching traditional, oh, high, Todd or low tide. They still kept finding ways.

The cash and it kind of reflects when I finish this game bay. Like, I I really go out when I when Have opportunity to when When I can. So, like give it... I don't like, I mean, you had have certain

high fees that really get excited them, But I always know, I'm the same way as Uk. I always know the tired. Absolutely.

I if it... I look at it if it's rising, I'll go here if it's falling over this spot. So I can't Absolutely.

Yeah. So I like this scenario is this fine Amount rising tide so scenario is final amount falling tag. Then my only fish a rising tide. I that wouldn't even limit my decision just even more.

Anyway, I think these guys and kinda you on know that too, you know?

Yeah. Know. My that's that's really interesting. That's a really, really good point. You can knowing the pride, you can strategically place yourself on a flat. Or on a channel or, you know, position your boat, you know, to

to really find those fish and work with the tide that you have. So I absolutely agree. Yeah. It makes sense that guide is number two. It yeah I've been over in those keys and and been fishing for just per minute and being really fish or bone fish, but for the permit, and it was amazing just based on that information that where the tide level was, we would make full on runs, you know, like, thirty minute runs to another spot or or move over the spot, and that was all just knowledge from the guide. So that it it it go going back to your data, it does make a lot of sense. And I think that the tied in moon phases is correlated together for sure.

That's pretty cool though, Mike think that's good stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's fine. Be taking any questions or if you guys wanna talk about the gear or whatever, but, yeah. That's go. I was the one analysis to do. I enjoy doing that.

Yeah. No. I really like that. That I was really good information, and, yeah. I appreciate you sharing all that. Well, I was surprised earlier when you mentioned that you had a, your buddy had let the the drag loose spur is out with a bone fish running around on there with his nine weight line

on,

I was like, wow. They're they're using nine weights over there. Bump. That seems like a a a a pretty big rod to use. So I was I was gonna ask you about that, Mike. Is that the that the typical size rod do you like to use? I do. Like, maybe, you know, the company that I I fish with, but all my buddies for nine ways. I mean, we do have

seven ways, especially if it's tailing fish, but I feel like in the keys from my experience, I think nine weight is the the way to go. And and I mean, there... I mean, and they're a big bone fish in the keys. And I... And I can back it up with data too, like, seventy percent of the Ig world records bonuses

are from the foreign keys. So they're they're big fish. I mean, the average size fish is

about six to seven pounds.

Now when I go to with the bahamas and I wanted to belize, I'm... I use a seven way hard time. But when.

When I go to the bay off Miami or or the keys, I I owe used the Ryan. Plus, I feel like, you know, so if a product buyer or something my dad, and it seems me we're always dealing with the wind. Yep. You know, And they really feel a lot more comfortable feeling a nine weight with a wind. It's still rare that I get a calm. So I still lot more comfortable with the nine weight. That's

Say that's, like, ninety five percent fishing in the keys that I've done at least has been using a nine late. There's... There's... I feel like there's two different types of people out there. There's those that wanna catch, like,

ten pound steel head on a three way.

And then there's those that wanna, you know, just do it comfortably and be able to handle the fish,

you know,

accordingly and and fight it accordingly. So you get it in safely and stuff like that because I see And that that's the same thing goes for bone. Right? I... I hear a lot of people like, yeah, you know, just look at this seven weights. Perfect for bones. And when people ask me, like, hey. I'm going to Hawaii. I'm going to, Florida, the bahamas to go bone, what broadway weights should I take.

They... I always say, hey It's it's probably gonna be windy and for... And if they're a beginner, like, hey, Just take a take an eight way or nine way because you're not gonna have a... You're gonna have more success casting in the wind. It's gonna be easier for you. And those fish pull hard, and they're still gonna have a good time using that. And then one of that... The second most common thing I get is they just wanna take their their fresh freshwater line. The lines that they're using for catching trout or

you know, in inland species and with fresh water and and there's lines that are specifically designed for that saltwater, that warm water

environment. So it's... And I I think that's super critical,

you know, to have the... That balance of the right fly line and the right rod together. So definitely,

you know, if you don't wanna take your fresh water line. You wanna get a good salt salt water line. And maybe Kayla, you have some

advice on on that.

Yeah. I do. So so in addition to the fly line, you know, I I think...

You if you're gonna go saltwater fishing period, whether it's for Tar or bone fish permit, whenever it may be, you know, T, I I think you need to have a really nice reel with a good

drag system.

So that's kinda like the first and foremost, because, you know, some people went when I worked in the fly shop, you know, they come in, and they're like, you know, like you said Nick oh, I'm going to hawaii. I'm going to belize, you know, I I need to get... A set up because all I have here in California are are my track. So,

you know, I always tell people, you know, get get a rod, of course, like, you guys are saying that you're... That you're comfortable with and that will withstand

you know,

na or intense, you know, gust of wind. But, you know, I think getting, you know, fl a little bit and spending, you know, the right amount of money on on a nice salt,

real,

we'll we'll do really, really good in the long run when fighting meets fish. And then, you know, in addition to that,

you wanna have at least a hundred to do a hundred and fifty yards backing

on your reel. And and, you know, I think we can all vouch and agree that these fish will use

all of all of your backing or we'll definitely get you in into your backing, you know, faster than you can blank.

And then

to have the line,

you know, to match to match your setup up. I I use a couple of different lines, and I've kinda to found over the years that, you know, like,

airflow and scientific angle and Rio and Cor, you know, they all they all have really good

saltwater lines in my opinion. But the ones that I like to use the most are the,

scientific Cor crystal floating lines or,

airflow has clear floating line. Scientific Anglers has clear floating line. And,

the reason why I use clear line

is because I've personally had experiences in the past where, you know, you have fish

that are coming up to you, you know, maybe it's a clear day you know, on the plot, and and they're coming up to you from all different

angles because they're just cruising.

And, if you go to make a short distance cast

in in front of the fish to lead it,

I've had fish spoof just from seeing your shadow, we're just seeing the shadow of your of your fly line, you know, over their head,

so a tip that I was given

after that having have been the cage and happening to need so many times, a tip that I was told about from a few locals was to get

clear floating line

So

when it hits the water, I mean, you can barely see it, it's it's pretty much invisible. And that to my understanding kind of

minimizes the amount of of color and, I guess what those fish are seeing and And I thought that was interesting because back to what Mike was saying at the beginning of the podcast,

Mike, you you talked about the colors that that bone see.

And and if the bone fish don't see red,

you know, I I don't really understand why the color of the line, what would make that much of the difference now. But, you know, I guess it could be

other variables, You know, how how cloudy or sunny, you know, is it, how how close are you you know, casting to the of fish, you know, what what angle are you trying to target them that from. So maybe there's just different

variables to that, and that's just what I've gotten comfortable with, but you know, I I think in general, you wanna have a good floating line. And then

if you wanna hit some of those deeper channels, you know, to have an intermediate sinking line as well. But but I think ninety

ninety nine percent of the time, I'm using a a a floating line.

And then, you know, in addition to that, I wanted to give some advice about, you know, leaders,

we talked a little bit about flies already. So

in addition to fly line, you know, having having really good leaders is

I I think one of the most important things

in in your setup.

And I usually run

anywhere from, like, a ten said twelve foot leader,

you know, Mike Nick, I'm not sure what what you guys have done in the past or if there's, you know, Mike, on the East Coast if there's, like, a standard

leaders, you know, set up or formula, But I I do on Mo kai or in Hawaii, I do,

couple feet of fifty pounds. And I keep her down from fifty to thirty

twenty, and then I will

kinda go back and forth between fifteen pound tip and twenty count tip. And I'm using... I'm using floor carbon

in in the tip.

Whereas

the,

two thirds of the leader prior, I'm using maxima.

And that was a tip that I bought from from a couple of the guides,

on on hawaii, and they, you know, you just kinda need them as you're walking around the flaps and such sure you go into the nervous water shop. And yeah. That's just something that I've found. And how I'm connecting those sections to create that leader is using

blood knots and you may not. So, you know, for us trout fishermen here in California,

the, you know, standard,

triple surgeons knot,

you know, or any overhead knots or anything like that. You know, it's it's that's definitely not gonna cut it. You're you're gonna need some really, really good salt or not. So

So I agree with. Are very similar setup up and and whatnot and this one that you said earlier about that. Because we have I I always laugh, like, Imagine if you spend, like, five grand on a trip, and then you cut your bone fish, and your real seasons up. Like I was probably so much else. Like I guys Right. You could spend some money more than a, like, doing my wife mail on reels.

That feel like you wanna make sure that when you catch that fish, you don't lose it. Right? You wanna have the best bags. Great. Absolutely.

And I think you can take, you know, if you are in a budget, I I always advise people that are doing salt, you can buy, you know,

a medium priced rod and get a a very nice, little more expensive real. Whereas, like, if you wanna to flip it around, and someone was doing fresh water, you know,

your average trout fishing,

you know, it's, like nine foot five weight or a nine foot six wait here in Northern California.

And I usually tell people, you know, you're not gonna have

very many trials

you know, pulling you into your backing all the time. Most of the time you're stripping position. Right? So,

especially if you are, you know, taking your four wait or three way to a creek,

you definitely don't need all of that drag. Therefore you don't need the expensive real. It it's just... It's pretty much just holding all of your fly. Right? So that's usually the advice that that I gave to people when they came in and bought you know, gear,

working working in fly shop. But, I mean, yeah. And then I... Another question that I get a lot is

when you're

stripping in flies,

you know,

let's say you're... You you pass to a bone fish, and, you know, you're weeding it.

I think, first of all,

a really good tip is, you're never gonna throw your fly at the bone fish like a dart. You're gonna... You know, you're gonna sp it.

I think that kind of goes for most

all all fish really. But, yeah, You wanna give it a little bit of a lead. I usually say, I mean,

you know,

you guys might have a better,

more specific example. But I usually, I mean five feet. Five feet away is usually a safe distance.

And I think

you really wanna wait for that fly to just kind of, like, sink in front of them. And the kind of stress, that I'm doing... I'm not stripping in super super fast

at first. You know, I'm kind of... And the the way that I think about it is if I have a shrimp pattern on or fraud pack pattern on, I want to make my strip look as realistic as possible,

to resemble,

the other prey that that they're, you know, actively hunting for on the flat. So, you know, you really wanna make it look as realistic as possible. And if if it's realistic, you're not gonna have a shrimp that is being, you know, stripped,

intensely, you know, a a foot every time you're stripping in. So as the as the bone fish sees that, as they're cruising towards it and they walk onto to your fly,

that's usually when I start speeding up my strip. And and the way that I think of it is that, you know, if you are a little bait fish or a little shrimp and

or, you know, pray, and something is chasing you, you're gonna speed up a little bit faster or you're gonna try to hide, you know, or or, you know, just get away.

And so I think when you have bone fish that are locked on your fly, especially if you have competing bone fish, If you cast your fly and there's five bone fish that see it, and they're all competing after it, that's usually when I... Speed up, you know, the intensity off of my strip and

it's kind of interesting. The first time that I ever cooked the bone fish on a fly rod. It it sounded or it not sounded. It felt very sponge like,

and I think that that's because, like, Mike, earlier in the podcast, you were talking about how

how they speed

and,

just overall, how their mouth malfunction and how they how they eat, they're they're food. And so it it feels really spongy when you get that first initial

strike.

And, I guess another another pro tip for that is don't t that.

You definitely wanna wanna strip that on those fish.

Because if you do a a trough that you're gonna mess... You're you're gonna miss the fish or it's gonna it's gonna spit supply. So those are just,

you know, some of the the tips that I've...

Come to realize, you know, over the last couple years. And, you know, I'm not an expert. I don't know

how

how absolute all of those tips or tactics are, but that's what what works for me, and that's what's made sense. Sense to me and where I go to target these fish. Those are all great great tips. Go ahead, Mike. I'll just say, hey. You bought up a tip that's pardon me. I mentioned earlier. But... So that they stuck in their food, They've a relatively small mess... For their body style. Compare, like a group has a much bigger amount or in the snap. But what I forgot to mention is they stuck it in it? Their mouth

is just like a trap.

Hold see.

House

I'm sorry about that. At cool. So anyway, that mouth is, like, a trap. So, really, they suck it in. They clash with their tongue. So if you ever, catch your bone first.

Open up the mouth and look at the look inside, and you'll see they they brush your teeth on the root for their mouth,

and their tongue has teeth on it. Like, crusher like, teeth. So it's really... They they they really stuck it in, and then they crush it with their tongue. So something keep in mind.

They'll stick your finger here in there. So

It's funny the first time I caught, I was, oh my god. On my finger. If this thing could crush, you know, a blue crab shell. I'm not putting my hand there. It's mouth. They count, like, a rubber. Right. I really do lawn. The mouth is nothing more than a... It's just a trap. It sucks it in and it closes and then there the prey is trapped there. So they really don't crush with their with their whips at all. I all about the tongue and then the roof of their mouth. And when I give presentations, I actually have a collection of bone fish tongues that I gotta keep with me. And I was just, you know, they can who can guess what this is. And most of the time, no one can get it right, But they very need tons, which are really cool that you can... If they crush with with something.

You do mind pay quick funny story when them. When my my friend Bobby gibson we first started bone fishing. He titus his new fly, like, this is a great fly. We we cashed it out there, and and I had a voltage come up and he looked at it and it stopped and his swim off.

Was like, Bobby, you're flying. Stuck, and I brought it in, and then,

then I thought nasa the hook was crushed, and the eyes were were, like, rotated. So what I missed was the bone hiding in his mouth and it crushed it. And I just didn't set the hook. I had slack in the line. I like a money. So what his why It was anger error.

That missed. So anyway.

Mind.

Real quick. I wanted to just add to everything you guys have been saying that one thing that they get mentioned on those reels is saltwater is very cor sclerosis. Right? I mean, that that can that can damage a reel or any of your gear so always make sure to to kinda wash it with fresh water. If you do have a... You get a nice reel, you're gonna avoid,

any, you know, anything bad happening to you out there on the water, like, losing a trophy fish or anything like that.

I've seen instances where,

barracuda have eaten fly line in half. They've actually, you know, get a fly line and cut it in half. So having an extra fly line is always very valuable, especially when you're in the middle of nowhere.

I know Fly lines can be expensive. And in regards to fly lines, I I agree with Kayla, I really do, like, the clear floating fly lines. I think they're awesome. I think they'd really help keep

just that x give you that extra edge, and and when you're hooking fish, the problem with the clear lines, the the guides can't see where you're casting or where your fly is. They have a really hard picking it up. So.

If you're going on a guided trip, they might require... It might want you to have a a a colored fly line. Yeah. Where you would just wanna, you know, links your leader a little bit more, and that that'll help avoid scoop on of my think, But I, I'm a big fan of the clear lines. I I I like them. I think that it definitely helps and then four carbon

leaders. I tried to avoid knot in any of my salt saltwater leaders. When I can,

especially in the flats because you can pick up certain things on on the knot and it can affect the

of your system, I guess.

But I it doesn't matter. You know, When you if you do it right, it's not gonna make a big big difference. I think You know. That's why I like,

I think I mentioned it the the you not because I you know, more streamline. If you get good, you know, and really practice you're not,

you know, and Nick, you're absolutely

absolutely right. You can catch, you know, debris and

you know, and and another knot is just another

potential Earlier point. Right? Right. Exactly. But I think it's, you know, I I always test my meters. I've stretched them out. I've I've put nearly all of my weight

on them and just really get them stretched out, check all the off my... My uncle that lives over there has even

taken...

I I don't remember the brand, but it's... You know, I mean, think of is just, like a zap a gap or type of, like, pine blue

or, like, a uv not scent, you know, or something like that until actually coke is not with that on his leader, which makes those tiny uni not a little more slick.

And and I I think, you know, I I don't know how necessary it is to

to make your leaders.

I just wanted to to mention that, you know, to get those longer leaders for those really picky fish because I know how picky those fish are in in Hawaii because there's not as nearly as many of them over there and there are

in in mike's neck of the woods, but, you know,

to have those really, really long

leaders twelve feet, sometimes even thirteen feet with a clear line,

is definitely the sneak

in my opinion, smartest way to

to attack these guys. So, yeah, Nick, you totally brought up a really good point on that. And then I wanted you to bring up some some gear... A little bit more gear stuff as far as the the boots, you know, waiting and just clothing for, sure for walking the flats here in a second. But one thing I wanted to bring up real real quick too is

Google Earth, it's an amazing system.

Whether whether you're in Hawaii or Bahamas or Florida keys. If you're on a Diy trip, Google Earth is amazing. You can literally go find a beautiful flat to go walk and all by yourself. You probably the only one out there.

If it really does help for the Diy trips. But, getting a guide is definitely first and foremost, I would highly recommend starting with the guide. And if you have time, you know, you can do more of your... The trips on your own. So,

definitely check that out. And when I say... What what I look for for me, I'm when I go to Google Earth is just a big white sandy, like in the Bahamas, it's just a giant sandy flat that has entry points. Right? Entry and it points onto that flat. Right and it's something that I I can maybe Mike has some some better ideas for that too as well. But

yeah. And and then, you know, so let's talk real quick. We're running out of time, Caleb, but just real quick talk about, like,

walking those flats and the coral and what you might want and sun, maybe some sunglasses there's Right. Yeah. Absolutely. So

I think, you know, as... We are talking about these the fish really or no joke and the places where you're going to to fish, you know, for

for these guys, it's... It can be really, really rugged.

And not not in terms of, like, you know, the the cold or anything like that, but just the sun,

you know. And

I've... On all of my trips,

sun protection is definitely one of the most important things,

you know, to me when I go to, you know, tackle all my gear,

that and then

you know, footwear. So,

my little feet don't fit... Don't fit these, and I have to kind of make make, and use other, you know, at locals and why they call them tub,

which pretty much are just little water boots

with little ankle socks that keep out gravel and protect, you know, your feet from the sharp coral. If you're fishing, I don't know about,

Florida. I, unfortunately, I've never been over there, but I know for sure in Hawaii when you're walking flock,

you should never ever do it barefoot or in flip flops or tennis shoes. You should definitely have

shoes that were built to handle conditions of the wreath. So, you know, I sims makes a great saltwater boot with a built in gravel guard

to keep out sand and little little bits of coral or rock.

That's very important. And then, you know, I I usually just wear

short, you know, sometimes in Hawaii, I see, you know, guys that are going out every day. They wear,

like, athletic, you know, long johns under their short

for... To to fully stay out of the sun. And then, I'm always wearing a Ups fifty,

sims solar flex hoodie

to to help. And then in addition to that, you know, the Ups fifty solar solar flex,

sun gator to protect your.

Your cheeks, your mouth, you know, your nose,

and then, you know, the the Ups fifty gloves,

I think are also in necessity because when you're walking around on the flat, your... I'm I'm usually holding my rod,

kinda crossing my arm, you know, on on my body, and the sun is just beating down on the on the top

part of your hand on your palms,

as well as when you're casting

And, you know, it's... Hawaiian sun is very, very harsh and extremely powerful and not to be messed with. So I I think the gloves

have made a really, really big difference.

And,

having gone.

Yeah. Okay. I've never been a big glove fan, and I'm looking down at my hands right now, and... The back of my hands look like a a leather patch where my... The where my forearms arms look normal. You know, and if you have a sun on all the time, and I'm never wearing gloves, but I'm really starting to think. That's right. If I want my hands to to stay young and... Yeah.

I didn't start wearing some of those.

I agree it. Like, as a as a trout, you know, Steel has fishermen, I don't work lu whatsoever. When I'm wrong the boat, not wearing gloves, you know, handling fish, never wear gloves. But... Starting to see ernie wearing them now.

No. I mean, and and you got a good like, ernie ernie out on the water every day in Yeah a hundred plus, you know, degree redding, California sun. So if you take that sapphire and put yourself in walking a flat for fourteen or twelve out. I mean, literally all day long,

walking a flat, and you're doing that every day.

I mean, yeah. The the hawaiian, like I said, it's no joke, and and it could be very, very harsh. So

I'm completely covered up when I'm out there.

I even... You know, like I said, I have the Solar flex sun gator or a buff on a hat, you know, as a must.

And then, you know, I was just gonna mention, you know, sunglasses.

I I religious sleeve where

hostess sunglasses

with the green mirror,

really emphasizes on

the entire wreath, you know, just your whole picture,

I mean, I feel like I'm seeing an Hd when I'm out there.

I used to wear other types of sunglasses when, you know, salt fishing, and then, you know, for the last several years, I've I've worn costa, and it's it's been a stable

in my salt

gear. So I just wanted to to add that. And then I also think, you know, to keep your your gear safe, like, your fly box and your, you know, your extra liters or your ticket,

you know, your camera cell phone, water bottle, all of that good stuff,

you know, Nick, you touched on how harsh saltwater water corrosion can be. I think using a a waterproof

backpack

or a sling pack,

the sling seems to be more popular nowadays. But waterproof housing in general, I I think just important.

It's it's worth the money.

There's nothing worse than than spending a bunch of hours prior to your saltwater trip time wise. You throw them in a fly box, you know, in your backpack. And then after your trip, you come home and realize that, you know, your hundreds of dollars on on flies are ruined because they're salt corrosion and all of.

So... Yeah. You know, Yeah. I think having waterproof housing, it is just

a great way to go. And, you know, just gives me peace of mind when you're when you're out there. I've even used my

my dry creek z backpack as a float flotation device.

As I'm... As I'm coming in, you know, because you're out there in the tide changes. Right? So while the pad gets higher and your way out there on the spot,

you know, you kind of have to doggy paddle and kick their way in, a little a little bit more short if you're hanging out at a channel, you know, looking for fish. So

lastly,

for gear, I I wanna clap on, I think having,

knowing the tide. So whether you have a watch,

that'll tell you time and and the tide, I think is ideal. But if you have, like, an app on your phone or you just in the morning before you go out or in the afternoon before you go out, you really analyze and study the tide and the time.

Because like I said, you know, that can get kind of intense if if you have a drastic change in tide

and all of a sudden, you find yourself having to, you know, swim in,

you know, that that that's happened a couple times. And it's not, you know, scary or anything like that. It's it's just, you know, you always wanna be aware of your surrounding of the changes and and what's going on? Because, you know, I think as a reminder, you know, you are in the ocean you need to... Yeah. You don't wanna turn your back to it because it'll beach beach up if you're not careful.

Absolutely. So

you won't catch You won't catch me with a sling pack out there, Kayla. I'm not gonna be one of those guys aren't sling pack. I'm sorry.

Yeah for those are that one. I just... That's not me. Those.

Yeah. The the back of the backpack is great. Because then, you know, you also have other attachments where you can actually put your your backup fraud on your backpack. Right? So

yeah. I I think that's that's really really important stuff. Hey, And, Mike, I had another question real quick for you? Are you still are you still there? Do we still have? Yeah. I am here. Do do you... Do you have anything to add

before...

I see a hundred percent in fact. I think last week. I sent you a photo of me with a bone fish, and I have

locally shirt. I have gloves on that photo. I have a food the sun gate is pulled down so you see my face. But I actually are wearing

pants. When I get bone fishing, I wear, like a well, my bone fishing really is from a boat. So and and in the keys, some of the places you step out, it's just too muddy to way. But Yeah. I'm a a people laugh me... Because I'll come back from a bone fish trip, but I I like to be what does it goat. I guess I think I think more sunburn burned just cutting my lawn, and I wanna go bone fishing says I'm huge, yeah, covering up the sun and and I think if I always bring two pairs of sunglasses. I think if I forgot sunglasses. I might even stayed that that. Like, I just wonder if I could even fish without some for bone fish.

I would be so miserable. I I don't wonder if I always bring two pairs, and I totally agree with the waterproof

box goes fortunate enough to go to like, dish off Mexico and leaves,

there's no dry storage. Do you have to make your own guy storage. So show I'm a huge fan of bringing, you know, some type of waterproof.

I'm sorry, waterproof box.

To put your jacket in your flies. Because you can't depend on the boat because it may not be no that maybe no storage in the boat. I'm I agree with everything you said. I can I? Awesome. Sorry. I had to take a call that went a little longer than I thought, but I have a couple things just to add there. One on the on the Google Maps stuff, Nick,

yeah. We we need to do it an entire episode around just scouting with Google Maps.

One one thing, the... A lot of people don't know about on Google Maps is when you go to satellite mode,

and you're say, let's say you're just looking at your your your your normal, you know, look... Your your neighborhood.

And the little guy in the bottom right corner that you can drag onto the map and then drop onto a street view to go to to switch to street view. You guys follow what I'm talking about Right rent Well, if you go to... And I did this, I used this technique when I when I went to Australia to fish for the first time. If you go into any kind of coastal area, or, you know, I don't know. Bone fish flats might not be you probably won't find a lot of data. They they didn't... Yeah. They didn't record that image, I'm sure. But you never know. But basically, you you... If you grab that little man, and then before you drop it on the map,

look on the map and little tiny blue dots. Will appear on the map. Okay?

Those little blue dots are actually pictures from the three sixty camera that were taken from that vantage point on the ground. So if you drop the... If you drop the dude on that little blue dot,

it'll go into, like, a street view like you would see in town, But you can be out in the woods or you could be on this, like, you know, I don't know. Just weird spots. You'll find these maps, but are these these photos, but it'll give you a really good sense for actually what's on the ground.

Without having to be there or scout it. So I'd I'd use that a lot all the time I use that feature. And it's not everywhere because it's all based on you user generated content.

But

when it's there, it's very very useful.

The other thing I wanna mention was around sunscreen.

I, big fan of sunscreen because I'm basically see through.

The the brand I like, and I really hate sunscreen because greasy and just nasty usually.

The brand that I like is from Ne. It's called Ultra

Sheer, lightweight sunscreen.

They make All I use Cad. Yeah. Yeah. This stuff. So s spf one hundred and and below, and you know, of course, I go full block just like I do

everywhere. And

that stuff's awesome. And it sounds like Kale

likes it.

Yeah. And I I like it for the same reason that that you mentioned chad. It's just... It's not creepy. It's not greasy at all when you use it. And

it...

I mean, to to be honest, it it doesn't mess up or damage your skin. So if you're a guide,

or you're in angle that is fishing in harsh, sunny very hot conditions every day all the time.

I mean, that that

the poll that all of that takes on your skin is or very significant.

So, yeah, having... That's a good point, Chad having good

good sunscreen that's not harmful to your skin, and that's not greasy is is really really key. And I know, like, a couple years ago, I know, like, since they had their own sunscreen,

and I really liked that because I felt like that wasn't greasy at all either, but I I don't think they have it anymore. So

maybe that's

a a little market, you know, knit is just having perfect fishing sunscreen.

Yeah. We should... I'll just mention it one more time. Ut regina, Ultra, shea, lightweight, sunscreen.

So. Chad. I'm on Google earth and I'm searching around, and I did find some places,

all the.

My... Well, my first attempts at two islands had zero dots. But then when I got to the grand Bahamas, I, I am finding streets that are lit up in blue and blue dots right? On the oceans. But cool. Yeah. You're gonna see... Yeah. Sixty fifty empty sunsets, I can see bay, I can see all kinds of cool stuff. So traditionally, where you're gonna find those blue dots in in any any usable quantity from an an scouting perspective is gonna be, like, Yeah around Est

or, you know, anywhere along the coastlines lines, you know, where where you would get Right tourists, basically, you know, out there. But

occasionally, you'll find some stuff in in super remote spots also, which is cool.

No. That's really cool.

Yeah. I mean, huge fan of Google earth. My my son's first phone fish, we were doing on a fresh ami admit this. We went on a family cruise, you know, a cruise with relatives and all that. And I like, the island are doing too. I went on Google earth and sounded flat. And then Alright. Grab my son. Let's go. Going. Weird is blind. They just look productive from Google Earth, and with an out there to throwing a jig and he caught his first bone fish that way. So, yeah. I'm a huge fan. There you go. See There you go. Yeah. I didn't catch Dick on my my Australia's trip. I did step on a sting ray, though, which was... Man, we went to whole episode without one.

Yeah

Town just kidding. Somebody...

Somebody's got a dirty this up a little. Oh my gosh.

Two hours.

Well, think... Hey. Thank you. Thank you guys for

joining us today. This is an austin episode. I really... I learned a lot, and I feel like I Know, I I knew a lot about phone vision, But I learned a lot in this, and,

thank you guys so much for taking the time to to jump on our podcast. Really appreciate it.

Chad Chad, do you wanna add anything or do we need... No. Do we need to add something?

No. Just, thanks for the. You know, if you guys do it's too late, the... I think the the gall

tomorrow,

so it's gonna be not... But Yeah, you know, as always, Cal out. Thank you, guys for the sponsorship And also, think, q fish bio for the sponsorship where it... We've moved back into their office by the time this this comes to pass this this episode.

Then what else that

folks can check out all the other podcasts.

That we produce, and then our our friends are hosting,

up in the Olympic Peninsula we have John Mc doing the Op fishing podcast,

super popular podcast. If you're in the steel head, it's the number one podcast at this point for steel head.

And then we have a Soc cal with the Bowman Conway S Bowman. They're talking about gosh, everything in all the inland stuff that's happening in in in Southern California and also obviously, the salt stuff and Mako shark.

And if you're in a family... If you've you've got kids trying to get kids out with the with the the family,

their stuff's awesome. And they've got all kinds of tips, and they cover that. And then,

we have,

Matt Har in in Truck doing the the truck podcast.

Truck fly fishing podcast.

Matt covers, basically, the Eastern slope of California and everything in between pretty much, a lot of people that listen to the Nor cal show, also listen to that one because it's all... You know, it's basically the the Trifecta, if you will.

So, check those out if you haven't listened to them yet, they're awesome.

Cool. Cool. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, thank you. Thanks, Kayla.

Good luck, guy. And iffy... And, Kayla, where can people find you?

For her water life fishing to go on a guide trip. Yeah. Absolutely. So, first off, I just wanted, you know, thank you guys for having me back. It's it's always a pleasure. And,

I mean, yeah. Nick, you said it. I I thought I knew.

You know, a thing or two about about Bone pitch, but I know a lot more now after this conversation.

And I hope viewers find find our our taxes tactics and tips very helpful.

Yeah. So you can you can find me guiding

around Northern California

and the clearwater lodge located on pit on the Pit River,

we're...

I think slowly, but surely getting back.

Into guiding, we'll we'll kind of have more information

about our county, chap to county,

hopefully, by Monday or Tuesday.

But until then, I think the best thing that people can do for our guides is to reach out here your favorite guide or to a guide,

and just let them know you're thinking about them, and you wanna book a trip for the future,

and that you are so excited to get back out there ex fish with them because we we miss all of our our clients and and fishing with our friends, and we we all definitely wanna get back to work.

In addition to taking all of the, you know, necessary safety

precautions recommended by the Cd. So with that being said, you can find me on my website at for waters fly fishing dot com.

I'm also on Instagram under my first and last name Kayla Kat.

And if you go to my website, you can also sign up for my

newsletters

which will, you know, periodically, I'll I'll send out black. That will talk about, you know, where I'm guiding,

and and what's going on in the area. And, you can also feel here feel free to get my cell phone number off of that website and email me or give me a call if you have any questions or would like to book a future trip.

Very cool. Awesome. Well, thank you. Again, Mike. Thank you. Sir. I think I think you're back.

Appreciate your time. So

Yeah. Fish sean and, sidelines everybody.

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