SE04E161- Dax Messat

Hot podcasting from Chico California.

This is the Bartlett fly fishing podcast.

Where we discuss North Fly fishing, guiding fisheries signs and management,

conservation and more.

No better, fish better. Here's your host, Hogan brown.

This episode of the Barb fly fishing podcast is brought to you by California shroud, Working throughout the state to ensure we have resilient wild fish, thriving in healthy waters for a better California.

Support cal innovative science based work by becoming a member or donating today at cal dot org. Alright, guys. Hey. I wanna welcome everyone back to the Bart podcast,

and thank you for checking out all the previous episodes we've put up here. My name Hogan Brown. I'm hosting here under the Nor cal banner, and

I'm incredibly

excited

to have my guest on today.

I have

I spent a lot of time with this guy at a very critical point in my life, and

I've always had the deepest respect form though. We we we kinda swap emails and text messages and Dms throughout the year. But, I I actually

don't think we have talked on the phone for a long time. So, it's great to welcome my

guest here today Dax message.

And I... I probably

mispronounced your last name, but

you can correct that for them if you wish.

The easiest way to know it, because it's a common thing to do. Yeah. It's not Ryan the first and left. So it's not dash massive.

It's back. That's it. Oh, okay. Okay. I've probably set it in the grand scheme of things like, every way you could possibly set it, just wait to, like, hit it right, You know? But... Sure. You know? Yep.

So it goes. Common.

Yeah. Yeah. See the first name. Right? That's also tough for people, especially the old cats yeah. Yeah.

So it dax is your your full... That's your full name. Right? I don't think I've ever asked you that. It is. That's it. Just three letters. Yet.

It's from a

then book called the adventures that my parents really were digging when they were coming up with me, and

I read the book. Probably just says I was going of the college.

It's a pretty cool book. I read anything.

Yeah. Yeah is. Yeah. He he had a pretty it awesome and life.

I'm doing pretty good too all over this years been a weird but,

Yeah.

Yeah. That's great man right now. I yeah. Yeah. Where... You are good too. Yeah. You're you're like... I was I we were talking before we got on, and I I was

one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is, you know,

you...

We met, I was trying to decide and kinda go back through my... You know, I don't know about you, but, like, the older I've gotten, like, the closer things feel like they happened but in reality there, like, decade ago. You know?

Yeah.

Fifteen years. Yes, thanks. Yeah. I'm like, I haven't known dax that that long. I haven't known dax that long, and then I like, walk out to the living room, and I I see my kids and I'm like, when he wasn't born when I met dac. Yeah. It's a little one tell yet.

So... Because I was singing back you was, like, my youngest son beckett was born.

One of those summers...

Well, obviously, ten years ago. So two thousand ten.

When we were guiding clearwater lodge. And I was like, that doesn't seem that long ago, but shit, that's ten years ago. So...

Okay.

We met... We met... I think this summer of two thousand nine or two thousand ten. If I'm not somewhere around there. You know, if Had to throw A dart on a timeline. But

I was... I got asked to go up there by Billy down to his running the place, and I'd never been up there before and

you and me kinda instantly connected on our our love of obscure Punk rock music or at least obscure to most people, it's, you know, very relevant. Right. Very relevant to us. Right. And

college football, man. And I mean, I was the guy up at Clearwater lodge that

didn't know a whole lot of about Spring Creek and all that type of stuff, man, and you really helped me out and dialed me in up there as I was lost

you know, as anyone could be in that technical environment. So,

what have you been up to now, man? I mean, I I was I thinking about where you have guided throughout your life and kind of the reason

Wanted to have you jan. I wanna know what you've been doing lately. But

you are one of the guides that when I first got this show, and I started thinking about who'd be interesting to talk to you. You're one of the first at the list because

you consistently through your career have decided

that whatever it is you do, and this is obviously my opinion, you can correct me. But

to guide for, like, the hardest possible

fish or pick the hardest way to possibly catch those fish that I know of. Like,

I was thinking about Was looking at your calendar I'm like, well, he he went to new Zealand, he guided Spring Creek trout,

and then he swung flies for steel head. That's like,

you know, that's like in a football game you're like, playing kick

you know, defense offense. You're just iron man. There's no... There's nothing easy about any of that. Are you still running that program?

Yeah yeah. It's kinda, like eastern and Michigan playing against Ohio state for the opener or whatever, you know, it's like,

those guys are up for the challenge, you know, they're

probably that's gonna be a great outcome, but,

Jab bro, I've just always been into the the challenge

aspect of it. I got in

the five fishing. I guess later in life, not until after college when I moved out to Tahoe so that's

my first experience with fly fishing on the truck, which is, you know, is a pretty

pretty tough tough to at. And so... Yeah. Since that, and, you know and then as soon as I went to clearwater and as soon as I got to hat creek and, like, you know, was a pretty good by then, but advance some of those, you know, Mike Peters, you know, and fishing, you know, fall river with gary warren back in the day and

all those old school guys just kinda

and clients to older clients, you know, Norm Kristen is not with us anymore.

He was in our mentor on Fall River. And I remember sitting under Christ Bridge looking at

you know, a giant pot of fish be is were you feeding on men, and Norman sitting there with his arms crossed, and I'm like, norm.

If we put this cork on air and a couple of net. That we will catch

many, many fish. If you are inclined,

and North is an old gold steam butter in North,

Fishermen, Yeah. Henry's Sport. Silver her creek beard and he's, like,

Young man, I am not inclined to catch christian such in a curious way.

And

something about it.

You know, cats like that. It just... Oh, you like just asked him to kiss to the kisses sister or something, You know? Mean,

Yeah. I know. It was like, he was when was mortified. You know? And I'm like, how about it? We at least for a thinking line. Like, that's happening are not rising if we can't if you know

eighty five to ninety two percent of a trial diet consists of subsurface a aquatic insects. I do not care. I'm here fifth drives.

You know. And so... Yeah. And then years later, you know, after guiding the fall her... At why it's said the first year, Haven't guided it so too. So

Yeah. Eighteen years of guiding it after about five or six years. I just... The only way I... Mean, again, I don't care how anybody form no big deal to me, but I just really enjoyed either the dry fly hunt or the sinking line hunt.

Yeah.

Kinda

New Zealand, you know, it was, like, man you could

bring in some California and Infant skills in New Zealand. The first hour there. I fished a lot around the town and got around the Tahoe area.

So I was watching people fish, and I'm like, man, you guys ever seen this yarn bone switch chat you have across. And.

And again, some oil couple primer tea. Like I put a savage for vera way to fish. What door

you.

Oh, dude. Yeah. This is before,

you know, trapped their technology. I can't imagine so I put a f, you know, thing the barber on there. They kicked me out of the country.

But anyway,

So by the time, you know, I spent seven years guiding in New Zealand and I'd say the last four to five of them all that fish would be... Was with a dry flight,

and I knew enough waters sheds that if if the river was blown, I just kinda knew where

we could have some drive opportunities are at least look for them. Then the did streamer a few times

here and there, but I just got into that cool site fishing thing, you know, it's a long way to go to the plan fish sure to in fish, you know, and, of course, limp works

right there with, you know, get some sheep stool losses stamps and a weighted hair and copper, which is they're basically hairs... Yeah. And you still do the upstream man, but I just, you know, I got to the point and you to ask my clients. I'm like,

we're covering our fish if he's not gonna rise and change the fly a couple times.

Talk that fish, we're going find a player. You know, let's still find a player. And, So

it required a lot of hiking.

But

I really dragged that aspect too Was kinda combining stitching with picking up these beautiful amazing crystal clear, Tree stone rivers or spring creek or Pe Valley rivers with all these different water types and energy sections and five gorgeous new zealand it's just,

yeah. Do this anybody out there hasn't been, well, they won't let us in their country, I don't really blame them right now. But

when they do let it sit again. Yeah. When we're well you wanna

Oh, god. Yeah.

Yeah. If you want, and the people there. It's it's, you know, it's before I went, you know, I I was inspired to go to New Zealand from Val Atkinson photos,

and Dick Allen had been there and rave about it, and I just had an opportunity to go.

I am, a buddy who married a tee. We and he was guiding tampa and he's, like, wanna come down and

I doing the snow snowboarding thing every, you know, when doing the snow snowboarding center and

mission pyramid and all that and highway twenty bridge and Yeah. Jones in the fish because the truck wasn't open here around in those. There's a little truck

actually since it should be closed in the winter for have it on a conservation as to what whatnot. But Yeah. But I would have fish form out. Yeah. You know... Yeah. Totally it rules a little bit... You know, you go through transitions and you grew up as an angle and I'm not saying that people that do make off and do that as bad or anything. It's just... You go through group progressions, I guess, that's the long way of answering your questions.

You you know catch a bunch of fit. Yeah. You know, and then you just wanna catch them on your terms.

And luckily, I found venues using clients all around the world that

especially the clients because I do it for a living that are they're kinda and my way of doing it the hard way. So it just seems more valuable when you do have success and

it's the act of doing it in the hunt, you know, for a lot of these things that I'm doing this just as enjoyable is this is the final outcome that we needed the purpose to catch us this, but

I just like, these games I'm playing with the venues I guide and go to because they're... They aren't for everybody.

And so that that means I'm usually with

my clients for my bros, you know, they're try this soften I take it. Yeah. No, man. That that is

that's so well put because,

it it is. You you you definitely

you know, have chosen the venues where it it the hunt is,

you know, it's all about the hunt. And I I've really is, you know, as our past have kinda gone in two different directions. It's like, I've,

I really relate to that with what I do with all the stripe fishing and stuff. It's like, you know, you're hunting and fish. And that is,

you know, it's...

You know, me and John Sherman and spend a lot of time chasing stripe together, and it's like, we'll we'll fish all day for that one. You know what I mean? And and I wasn't I wasn't that way ten fifteen years ago. You know what I mean? I couldn't do that. I didn't...

You know, you get that anxiety if you're guide and you're not catching fish. You know what Mean? Like, you you...

There's that... Those odd... We're kinda rough spots in a trip if you're not catching fish, but, like, finding the right people that, like,

man, I'm just out here for the pursuit.

You know, I I have a feel... I have more more of those guys than not. And I mean, that is

it's a great day is what it is, because those are the people that,

you know, they're just as stoked on seeing an os tag a fish or a a baby deer,

making the right cat. You know what I mean... They're kinda into it for the whole experience. And that's

it that's a much more enjoyable day as a guide I would think. And I I find that. So

so the New Zealand thing a long time. Right? Right. It does long time to... It does the client base and they get there and have them from the off.

Philosophical at the aspect because we're throughout out there are, you know, a couple hundred days a year. Yeah. And for us to continue to be fired up. We have to... Like, we have to have find ways that, you know, not whole doing of this thing and and looking for moments as opposed to racking up a bunch of numbers and Yeah. Again, I'm not this and anybody if that's their program. That's fine. Oh, no. No. No. By no means. So it's it... That's... Okay. Cool.

I I've... Said that, you know, I used to get flagged for that, you know. So if Oh, no. And and I I will totally even slack, and I will totally give... I I mean,

man,

but you gotta be able to take it. You can take it just as well as I can take it. And Yeah. I absolutely do. Like, I'm not do of it. This sn aspect because I'm around a bunch of geo a lot. You know, They Oh, hell, yeah. They think them. They're like, they root for me to catch a fist. They're like, look back that guy always not here goes big on. Well, they you know, so... Just sticking a lot for punishment me around.

Oh, yeah. Dude like,

so the days of being around, like, twenty

live fishing guides on this trinity on one.

Yeah home life

I'll the year, dude. You know what? I is? Yeah. Oh, for sure.

So the new Zealand thing I always thought that was really cool because that was... When you were doing that, I I that has to have been what, like, eight years ago when you stopped doing that?

Or long Yeah. I... I... My last year was two thousand ten. Okay. In the winter. Gotcha. You know,

our winners there summer and yeah Yeah. And I would be five months at a time. That was a and that was a total Diy deal though. Right? Like, that was not, like, you going and up in a lot. Like, that was... I always thought that was

I I thought you were totally balls for doing that. Like, I'm like, wow. That's...

He's got... I mean,

I I I always thought young really cool For the younger man.

Yeah. I guess. So. I...

I reached out, and what I do, you know, because even now I got in a lot of different venues. I... It's really have, like, a home river or and I'm not a local. I'm not, like, having that in a section in a big horn. Thirty three F, you know, I'm not not that. I seen guided

hundreds of different rivers and and now I got in three different states. I... Then I've had licenses in Montana and Alaska as well. And

No.

I'm I'm deciding to guide. I try to

have done enough research and put enough time in where I find guides that are already there who I respect it his guides, and I respect their program, and I reach out to them and say, hey.

There's gonna be another new knuckle go head around. And if I'm doing anything that you don't like or they're budget, please. Here's my number, don't hesitate to to call me, I wanna know if you're not soaked on something I'm doing I'm doing because that's...

It seems like I've had that conversation with people's

every year, you know, I'm always trying to find different venues.

I keep saying I'm gonna slow down a little bit on that. But back to New Zealand. Yeah. Clark Reads. You know, he was an early better in the Tahoe area.

And then when I got to the south island, I actually did. At least a lot, So I had a little B.

I lot down in a awesome little town called Ga, which is on the upper tower River,

one of the coolest job river ever,

again, it should be on your dream list. At the top five River in in the world. And now I bought a campground like a young young knuckle head off the Reed River,

which is another top five, and that was just the worst financial decision of all time boom,

I gonna I was gonna say you're still working.

You...

I mean, I... You know, and,

you know, timing is everything was real estate. Right? And Yeah. Well, you know, I heck out of at my early thirties, and I I had, you know, I just

went for it. And you know, when it was all sitting and down, I'm like, man hot... If I guided a lockdown down there and I and I'm like, how do I not have any money at the end of every season here. Like, if I don't owe

my accountant five grand. Like, I had to win. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. So

but it's a it's an experience based I could education and we'll say right? There's that experiencing, and I would trade those seven eight years for the world. I mean, it was

I still have what I consider family down there, and,

yeah, wonderful country, and, yeah, I have a large thing going, and then

have experienced, you know, Gosh. I every now, I'm a big with lifting stats. That's probably like, you know, our love just football and so yeah some stats and stuff.

So I would keep a running list. And when I was down there, there wasn't... I remember just... I had all these maps. Right? I talk to hunters and other anglers and that was far as the whole game. Right? There wasn't...

Oh, like, if a map to on Instagram to a cool river or, like, we're trying to throw you off track... That didn't exist. You know, it was still the dial up Internet down there when I was there in those days and

So I just dug the whole map study saying, and I went in many sea rivers,

you know, hiked in with buddies or solo overnight at boats dropped me off and come get me in three days. I didn't even see a fish. You know what I mean? But it didn't.

Take away from how Epic got experience wasn't, like, why I walk up this crazy valley and saw I was probably doing, like, you know, definitely only only, like, person there and a lot of places. And

longer I was down there. I I'd write down new rivers. I hear about or whispered about pub are a great place because

Fishermen get drunk and they drunk a do they handheld help take the drop loose lips. So. Totally. Oh dude.

How another of my friends.

Yeah. Right. Like, heck can get, you know?

It's... How long can a fishermen keep the speaker? Like, maybe he's drunk around a bunch the other fishermen not fucking very long right?

Totally. Sorry about this dirt. Oh, no. We're good We're. I got a lot.

Oh, okay.

So anyway, you know, I... And I I got John Kent books, and, you know? So, yeah. And so there was a lot x extra that's a beautiful part of it. I I just didn't really have...

Go here or go there and you know, the guide I reached out to in the South Island after I was there for a few years with Dean Bell, and we become, you know, beautiful friends over

over the course of years, Dean was the first guy that I first person I went to Dc with an experienced British Columbia, which has become a huge part of my life over the last eleven years sadly not this year. But first person I went to Dc and that with since still had bummed around with for a month with Dean. And

he's a kiwi. You know, and dean

in terms of... I mean, I finished with a lot of man Legend type people in British Columbia at the dean. Oh, my gosh. It is that guy...

He's he he was... He he went to Uni as they call it a major in mad, and I believe his dad was might have been a master filter or something. Wow. So so him he kept the jail.

Right. Yeah. And he'd had...

He's probably been the british Columbia It's probably twenty five or thirty times now, you know.

Wow. Like, would a crazy and that it always goes for, like, four to six weeks, you know? Well, yeah. If you're coming from New Zealand and you gotta stay. You know, yeah. It's not a quick trip.

He's got a very understanding why. Yeah. That was that.

Yeah.

Still married some all that, but

How, funny. I'm going to do, you know. Yeah. Be. So

Well, it's super funny because

one of... On the show, we have a ton of guides on and kinda. And you're, you know, something you said that I didn't even, you know, as I was thinking about. All the stuff I wanted to talk about with you and catch up with you on and stuff. The...

You you are the one guy that, like, you don't have a home river.

Like,

you know, my whole my whole program is to, like, guide less places

and travel

less distance. I'm like,

you know, I'm I'm at the point where I'm, like, I literally bought my house, like,

close to a boat ramp. I'm like, oh, I don't know if I wanna go down to Butte City today. That's, like, thirty minutes.

And, like, you're like, well, I'm going

you know, I what states and countries do I need to buy guide licenses in this year. It's... I don't... I can honestly say, I don't think I know anyone else like that in the profession guiding any in that that just hit me while we were talking, like, you are truly,

like, a va guide. You... I mean, like I said, when we were talking to in the beginning, it's like, I don't even know where to send you a Christmas card. Like...

Right.

I mean, no. No one else does at Hogan is because it's crazy. Yeah. Like, I

And and it... If you... You know, I taught a lot of guide schools as you know, and and, you know, this... One of the first things I always say is like, you know, it's It's a joke but kinda serious

for your day job and, you know, a lot of people has are, like, thinking about becoming a guys. They're were like, why he charged six hundred dollars a day. Well, let's see six hundred times too much. They what... I'm, like, dude...

Yeah. That is the biggest part...

I mean,

if you saw the expenses, and and I did do... I think I did around a couple hundred days, like, actual work.

In some of the early days, and that'll just kill you literally. It will kill you Oh, yeah. The guys man. It's made. You know? Yeah. I go to the key a. Just wanna... Yeah. One of my efforts other same favorite things to do now try to catch the permit, which is horrible. But anyway,

tarp guide in the keys, You know, they'll... I'd seriously, like, fifty some days in a row. And stand on that plan. More than portland. Yeah. I mean, that...

And I'm, like, I feel like less of a man. You know what I? I'm, totally I cap it, like,

I cap my days in a row at, like, seven or eight totally. And I used to do... You know, when you start, though, you just wanna see that calendar full,

Yes. But then I'm, like, well, dan, I'm pretty worth with at at forty seven, you know, at the end of day six in a row. It's kinda like... It's a lot. You know? And

so on, I... Like, you, I'm tweaking my calendar, and I know it it might sound like I'm still traveling a lot, but it I We have a house now that my now goes do. My lovely wife lived.

You know, we we own a home Med and and... But I wouldn't call Road as a home river. I'm an impostor on this river dude people like, when I'm around town like, you're a guy. Do you know this? I have no idea

we were literally dirty times, which isn't really that much. He can

yeah.

I've guided Rivers of new zealand more than this one.

Know. That's nuts posture.

The all these people out there no don't hire me to the road go with my wife for John Hay. No I idea where we're going in. But even though I live here.

Yeah.

You wanna better. I'm figuring it out. Yeah.

Yeah. So what what is your program now? Yeah.

What is what is the what is the dax program now?

Without...

Let's say who.

Yeah.

So I do...

A a percentage of my business now is

supposed to travel, and,

all that got this year, you know, in April, I was supposed to do Cuba in July, I was supposed to do Bolivia

And,

right now, I'm supposed to be up on the Dean in Bc, and then I always do a month

on Sienna, in,

September.

And then,

but still might happen is some Red fish in New orleans down in December.

You know. I don't know if That'll ask or not.

So, yeah, I'm trying to do

you know, a fixed school hosted trips a year.

And then, January, February,

I do this southern oregon coast for winter steel ahead, and then... Gotcha. March and April. I do the Olympic olympics peninsula in Washington.

And then I usually just... There they're a chill in there. I usually do the saltwater thing. I've been doing that for a long time. Now. Usually, in that April May time whether it'd be

Bahamas or the keys or Mexico or whatnot,

kind of those are great places. And then I kinda transitioned this year, in last year, I didn't be much fall River last year. I still love it, You know? Yeah.

Still... It's a... This is the first year I been there. So it's kinda, like, I wonder if, you know, when when eleven thirty rolls around I'm like, I wonder if there's any

data's that's coming off I, you know, I yeah. The Well, And I don't know. I'm sure you've talked to everybody, like...

Supposedly, it's at the best year those guys have ever seen. You know? In a long time and that makes me

that warms my heart in a way

that,

and and again, it's funny because I don't...

I'm like that is so good. The last thing those fish needed me to come down and start hammering on them with, you know, that be totally. It would drive. So it's it's still... It's not like, I am. Drive them like, a hey sixteen foot liter reach recast, Dc.

I took that fish.

I love that game though. That is one of the best t gains. There is that flat water from a boat,

passing down the trough, in line reach caps, and that is, like, that is still one of the coolest things and but I I know if fly. And and I'll get back down there, but, you know, I used to live on that there for a lot of years and Oh, yeah.

You know, after the clearwater thing, we've, yeah had, a confluence. We had our house there, and there was nothing like just...

Being on that river and spending,

crazy amounts of time cruising around and and you're close to all those other gray rivers I'd love Hat. I love the pit. Yeah. Really loving in the cloud, and

you know, that used to be my summer program. But since this steel had swing thing really didn't me, you know, now that's gonna be...

It's kind of on the back burners now. And I just got a North Elm permit. So I... Yeah. Trying to get that permit sixteen years. Yeah. So I finally got it last year and now this year, it's transferred to me. And so that means I have more days there. So I mean, July and August, I mean, that's probably where I'm gonna be, and then September,

in years not this one,

will be Busy. And when I get back from there, you know, I still they lower climate thing. We do stay on a lower climate.

Hopefully, we get those going again. You know, we took a precautionary approach to this year, and there's just

so many known. Like, we just wanted to do what was in our control and being safe, so we're just having,

the trips we're doing on the k as me and Gina and Randy and Brian We're just having our beach at a hotel, and we're cleaning our boats. And, you know, Yeah. I love that lower climate. It's it's such an awesome venue and, kinda like, we are still anything in the summer. You know, that in boots and shorts and... Yeah. And you've been. You guys been doing that off. Yeah. You guys been doing that camp down there for quite a while.

Yeah.

Yeah. I man, it it started

you know, just as

an instruction based saying, you know. Yeah. And people get bored would having yarn on there. They're like, I'll get put a fly on it. Like, and on the fisher and,

like, holy... Then they... But I'm like, okay. Now we want to work on a,

double stay on river left. They're, like, why are we leaving fish. Like this is not a fishing. Even Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now it's morph into... Because we used to do it in late... We'd start in late July and August. And

and do those those, like that two week period when the when when the fish yards are showing up there and and,

so it's kinda hard to to maintain the casting clinic

not turning it to a fishing clinic wouldn't

everywhere. So Oh, totally. But they wouldn't always be, like, all still efficient. And so,

it was one of the more successful things we did, and and that's the cool venue that I'm gonna do again next year,

and and we'll probably do, you know, six different camps for next year in twenty one.

And, Gin, there he's the named man. He does that in a full six weeks, and then I'll go down for a couple weeks and Randy and Brian.

Will kinda sp in there. And and then after that, in October.

You know, I've I got a middle plan permit too. I'm really digging that. That's kinda my new, you know, little venue I just started last year, leslie and I. Yeah. And we really did as part the River and it's not that far from Med church, you know? Dude... You are downright sounding a little domestic right now. Like, you're starting to stick pretty close to home bro. Like, that's... Yeah. And sit north only two hours from here man. Yeah Like, you're kinda... I mean, you're only... Halfway. Yeah. That's like, all in the same state almost.

I mean, yeah.

And in winter it's Southern Oregon Coast and and and doing some road days here in November and Yeah. You know, I'm done with it, And Ron. That's another one.

Every angle out there listing has to do, you know, for ten years, I work with Scott o'donnell,

a bunch other austin's like a tune and but just a bunch... Awesome people were han baby up on the Andy sofa on the Grand Ron ritter and... Yeah. Did the Multi day float in Washington and four day float, and it does this.

If you like fake casting and twenty or still ahead and, like, remote, like, camping,

that that is a pretty amazing. You gotta do it.

So I haven't a buddy. Yeah. A buddy in that, you know, but

I got a buddy who always tries to get me to go there. I know Yeah.

Oh, Hogan seriously I to do it and not take a rod.

Really. Like, can do the whole. Oh, I would do it without, you know, and then I...

I'm kinda getting into just being a guest on white water trip. It's kinda fun. You know? I yeah for short work, couple years ago, you know? And I'm like,

and I didn't even bring Rod, and it was a hosted trip and, you know, my... The rapid companies, like,

alright. You brought this choppy anglers on this trip, like mid June. Like, we're just hoping to not die. Or. You know? Because it was, like, high water here. It was like, crazy breath like, there's nowhere for fish, you know. And Yeah. This because we see them at, like, theater creek. Like, I'm like, yeah. We can pick up into those creek and see they were all, like, you know, Pit river at eight hundred Speed. I'm like, you're not walking up in there. You know? Yeah. So...

But anyway, I would do that Raw slow just at the

this is a white water trip, but it just happened to be, you know,

a lot of hit three lot of legends fish that river, and it's just that cool high desert and this beautiful swing water and parts of it are quite technical and,

when the fish are around and the there's not sun on the water and if they're like this the uncle fish and know they kinda... They look out, man. They just Yeah. Whatever that is about that thing getting up there. They just

like it, and they don't have hands to sw the away they go and bite at it. You know? And

So is that

is that a summer fisheries? Or because my buddy's always trying to get me to go, like, thanksgiving.

Okay. Denver October. Okay. Okay. November

November is when you would go in, like,

the fish should definitely be there by then. Yeah. You know? I like them a little bit fresher though. Gotcha.

Okay.

You know? But they're they're they're in there at that point in there.

Forth here. Some crazy.

Let me go inside.

I don't know if you hear my neighbor fired up in

which blair asking.

Oh, you said out again lit.

That's awesome.

God bless medicare.

Yeah.

Yeah. I use on happening.

So you Anyway. You really got into this swan fly thing. And I...

That was that was

when I when I when we were first, when I was hanging out with, like, what would become the confluence crew, Like, all those guys were just...

I remember given Mike Peters just massive amounts of shit about swinging flies and I was gonna, you know, fishing beads and all this type of stuff. And

you went though, like, I mean, you've worked with everybody. Like, I mean, just the names you've dropped in a, you know, thirty minute conversation, like, I mean, you fished with, like, the guys,

You know, whether it's Scott Howell, mike, you know, like,

these are the dudes.

Like and,

O'donnell, Not howell. Howell. Okay.

Like, no. O'donnell It not how. Donald.

Gotcha. Gotcha.

So...

That's a big difference. Okay. Okay. And everybody out there was single will know that.

And I checked. I also that like... Yeah. I have no color,

like.

Yeah. That... That's right.

So

so the bill logan my first left? That's awesome. Okay formal then. Gotcha. How crazy is that? Me and Brian Sc

who's a great four seasons

fly fishing guy service and truck week. That's that... First guy gave in two thousand, I started, you know, I started working with Brian.

And, you know, just saying two thousand o one, you know, it's

like we knew with Sp rods were, and so we went and hired bill. Yeah. And then Bill was one of the guides for my guide school at Clearwater house went at Creek.

Right? So Bill lowe was one of the guides for that week. And we had eighteen people who get in that guide. A holy cow.

And think of that.

Eighteen. That's how big fly fishing was in o two.

And a lot of those guys, there are a bunch of, you know, welcome maine throughout northern in California

you know, Nevada other places. Yeah guys from Florida,

and that guy cool and Wow. And then there's Gen who would went to the guys who here before, and he's got all these, like, spare rods get come in the corner and I'm like, oh, you like speaking at. And like, so

you know, kinda, you know, helped me out a lot. Check on his link and then he meets Johnny Az list just you know. Yeah. Please,

at that time just,

like, wow. All you, Johnny was an inspiration because that's... He would stay only way early on, you know, which

when you come out

and do that, you sacrifice a lot of work you could be doing. And if you're... Oh, I absolutely seeing a I'm missing guy. Right right. And this is like, I don't know what where that was. O five maybe zero six. He's like, yeah. I got the road.

Only, like, seven percent of Anglers when a swing flies at is hired guy here. I'm and I'm only gonna swing and we're like, as we got...

Like, we bob it up, have the bob or Olympics. We'd get gold medals. You know what I mean? We on the Trinity.

You know? And we got bills without that.

That's right. Dude like, yeah. I got

Yeah. I gotta pay for these new Zealand because some going on and I'm.

You? Yeah.

But, you know, and then you start me some of these

these dudes and, and, you know, as Johnny got to go to being early on in met George Cook

and and,

you know, Charles Saint Pierre and and just start meeting Simon Go were, you know, dear friend now and all these people that were, like,

legends in there like,

and and again, nothing against the way any anybody be, but I started being like, wow, the clientele health when I do the swing thing. I just seem to be more in sync with them. You totally. You gotta find your people, man. And that that's it's all about that.

Right?

That's right.

And

most of my dogs following me inside.

August back. So...

And then hogan

the

the real thing

that that started hit me like, the lightning bolt when I started On in New Zealand and started doing the winter still that thing. I'm like, well, wow, winter still heading on the southern Coast, you know Olympic Peninsula,

we're targeting wild fish.

It's like, okay.

Well, wild are in danger. Right? And Yeah. In in all these fisheries now in danger, You know, we have less than

ten percent, you know, the original runs in many of these rivers when it's going down. And,

you know, so then it puts you in a

conundrum is because we'll... I'm a stitching guide.

So people,

you know, by... Well, I a guy to go catch the fish, but that that was never really my program. I'm like well, hey. You hire me,

and I'm gonna guide in all these venues that mostly have or only have wild fish.

And I'm gonna do it in a way where I have, you know, control over how many we hook based on the technique I'm using because no matter what technique you use the mortality rates for Cog release this exists. Right? Yeah.

The best her to preserve, the long term sustainability

of wild steel head is either a,

not go fish form. Right?

Totally. For b

at less of them. You know what I mean. Yeah.

And so when I... That... When I weigh those things. I'm like, well,

you know, for wild fish, we're kinda fish to them in places where we're not kitchen form and sanctuary water and some super slow.

Dead butter, you know, dead drift in a pencil... It didn't feed nine feet down where they're resting to go up that creek. Yeah. I'm fishing foreman and ripple pinch points, you know, six miles below for above the ocean. You know, You know, and most of these places is really close to the salt. I'm going for that memorable

dish. With see lights on at Bright Chrome.

I I get blank a lot you know, But when we hook one it's pretty...

You remember them, you know, Yeah and we try to handle it. Try to get that keep them wet photo and, you know, gosh. And that's a a thing, you know, for those wild fish, it's

you know, you know, folks I half me can you yarn some giant wild to seal it out of the water like, yeah

go. Yeah. Totally. So like, tons... There's one... You know and... Yeah. And

and then you you you start to... You know, and and and as you know, on for your fisheries, you know, you start to become

more of a somewhat of a conservation is more than your guide and and the more we would take out there.

That looked through, you know, your scope of protecting the fisheries, and then maybe, you know, so every guy I guide is gonna join the steam voters, you know, conservation based

organization. Yeah. You're gonna join the native assistance. You they're gonna join Water ross and road root or teeth for.

And,

you know, it contribute, you know, whether it's letters writing to people we need to write letters too, whether it's donating money for these

these waters sheds.

It's more than just about going out and getting them and trying to have that moment, you know, at the end of the day, no matter what technique you're using, you have total control over it. Right? And so Yeah. I I... Your... My buddies once they get two fish, they roll out. They're done. You know? Yeah. They're like, boy we could hammer on, We could catch nine fish right here. You know Yeah. You on rear check and say it's like, you know, that it has hatch treats too you, but they're like, only the wild ones are in here. We're done. You know what I mean? Because Yeah. You know, if the mortality rates.

Depending what you're doing eight to eighteen percent. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It, you know, like the Op like the whole a River is it is a steel head puts four times on his way up to the spawning ground

by fly guy.

You know, not very good. Right? For the future sustainability. So if I'm not calling dudes the out or anything like that. Do what you want. But I think every angle

should look in the mirror and and had a real honest

conversation about the personal impact that they're making

on the fisheries and this future sustainability

as well, still have that are already in trouble. We can't control the ocean condition as anglers, we can't can't control the regulations as anglers or the the how the head waters are doing or logging or all that when you're fishing, you know exactly what you're doing Right? Because you're the one fishing. Totally. So I think everybody just needs to... And that's kinda what got me

even more Hogan and grain and, like, the only way I wanna catch one is I wanna swing a fly.

That's the only way I want my clients to catch one. It's the swing of fly. And that way, they catch their own fish. Yeah. I'm basically a coach. Yeah. Game plans. That's based on all these things,

You know, I'm not gonna, you know, Bella check doesn't go out there and get the ball, like, to him and puts it up on Brady but hey you know what I mean? Totally Totally.

He's on the sidelines line. You know what I mean? Yeah. So,

yeah. When you're on your own Tuesday, swing the flyer, hell have a gear rod thrown it. Spoon out there. You're you're on your own two feet on the ground catching your own fish. You're handicap that's a different story, but

I don't see Met, you know what I mean? An argument, like, a lot of fishing from both guys. You know, that are drifting through these places are there they're like, if I got so many handicapped clients

gotta put that roll on under the father.

No, man.

Fifty. It's such a different. It's such a different. Kinda perspective on guiding,

you know, because it's...

I've always just found it very interesting the swung fly guide because

it it is such a

you are putting so many things against you by being like, you know what? I'm only gonna guide swung fly steel at fishing. Like,

I mean, that is,

like, that is signing up I mean, like he said when John first did it, it's like, I mean, if John was, like, you know what I'm gonna do both, like, he could work five six days a week on the rogue. You know what I mean? But, like... Yeah. Almost long. And all. Yeah. Totally, like, I mean, he could run, you know, eggs and legs

six days, seven days a week. I'm sure.

Yep. But to go out and just be like, no. This is the way I'm doing it. And

what's what the testament to it is is that you guys do it and that you make a living doing it. You know what I mean There there is

if there wasn't something to it, you wouldn't have clients and people wouldn't do it. You know what I mean? And and the idea of controlling how you catch the fish, you know, taking care of the rivers with which you fish, Like,

as a great way to look at it. I've never looked at it that way. You know, I've always looked at it of, like... Buddy?

This is such a hard way to do business,

you know.

So...

And I've got one you're really gonna relate to. Alright.

So in The mckay, right Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely love, and and I've been honored, like,

both be us with him a little bit after some shows here and there. And I remember,

reading an interview. He had... Like they're like, so Fu, you know, back in, like,

I'd say ninety one in on the Kill taker came out. And.

I'm so that's, like, right when

Nirvana on it started getting big and and the whole gru thing really started, you know, right when I went to college, I went to college in ninety one. So ninety one and ninety two

it started exploding. Right? Yes.

And Ga, you know, remember

seeing Eddie better,

and I love Pearl jam. My my hardcore punk off. Oh, they're they're not sellout out Too they're often. But anyway, Absolutely. Eddie better...

I I wanna say it was the end Mtv unplugged, saying he wrote su ga on his arm with a sharpie inserted to the camera. Yes. Yes. Like, awesome. Yes. Like, I love who got. And better, look... It's one of the reasons why I love Projects. They love Punk rock. Right? And so... Absolutely. He the case is, like, it's all these major record

deals.

And he's like, no. I'm alright. Doing what I'm doing. It's, you know, my Cds are five bucks, and my shows are seven to ten bucks,

and I'm in control of it. Yeah. I could sign for capital records and have all this more money and more toward, you know, more it's almost that's so I'm cor with the swing guide. Right? It's like, totally, like, h got,

but we're happier

than maybe

just working more than we we already talked about. I don't wanna work two hundred days anyway. I wanna work a hundred and twenty on venues I really dig with people. I really enjoy spending the day with. In a lot of times evening let's too. Like, we we do a lot... I've done a lot of overnight stuff whether they're camps or Yeah. You know, rent house or, you know, going if hotel rooms and the whole covid bit travel or it product of of all that. It's like house godly and Yeah return was sick of all and hot water music. And they all become buddies and noise. They're friends with the bouncing souls. You guys gotta meet bouncing souls and their friends with A and I in and all those, like, cool bands that we love,

you know, they

it became, like a a scene of just like minded and in the space dude, you know, as I travel around the pacific northwest and up into Canada.

You know, you get around fires and,

you know, it's

if Ian the mckay they're compared to

the lead thing or the chain smokers you're probably not gonna talk to the chain smokers, man you're.

That's that such a good analogy. That that is such a good analogy because it is

you know, the spa crew, it is, like,

it... They're... It's like blood and blood out. Like that indie rock punk scene, man. I mean, it is...

We didn't shit the hard way. Like, we're not selling out. Like,

You know, it's funny. This... I was at the boat ramped the other day and salmon and season down here opened and I'm, you know, loading up my fly rods in my jet boat and doing the whole thing, and I'm looking at these guys, you know,

load and sick. Dudes in their boat to drag Row and make, you know, two seventy five piece

be home by, you know, nail limits and be home by, like, nine Am and I'm just, like, goddamn damn right. I should have been a vision guide. No.

You I'm just doing their boat and their big shop. Like, totally in their big shop and you know, It's like, what the fuck did I think did focus weren't this boat there. Yeah. You know?

Like, god, I should've have been a spin fishing guy. You know, and... But it's the same thing Dude. I mean, I totally get it. It's... You know? I mean, I could go drag six dudes in a boat with shine down the middle of the river and catch a whole lot more stripe and throw freaking fly.

And make a lot more money. You know, Not I you know, on the snake. You feet it on the road. You see it it it all all over, you know, and

and those guys look at you like,

Oh, nice little used truck with your Yeah.

Totally.

It totally

and And, like, you know, my boats are all, like, little compared to theirs. Even my deck is only eighteen and I still have to play musical boats like park all our boats and around our driveway and around our

our streets not boat end anybody. You know, So...

But I did get a new boat and new truck finally,

the right when Covid started, so that that was really fun deal. Yeah.

That's great.

New to you. Everybody. New to you or, like, new new?

No brand new. I bought a brand new truck for the first time ever, you know, brand new boat for the first time ever. Oh, earlier luc. Good for you. Good for you. You have arrived.

You have arrived.

Forty seven at well, twenty years, your twenty of guiding full time. That's all it took call you budding guides out there.

Unless your parents, like, when I slow it, you know. Yeah. Unless wanna get bankrupt by all and down

eighty. So how's the summer luxury. Yeah. How's the summer been on the north Thumb for you.

Tough. Yeah. Man. Not a lot of fish. Yeah. Not a lot of fish.

Yeah. Very if you... And it's always, I would say tough. You know, it's supposed to be, You know, fly only. Yeah.

No wait no, switch out as... If death reg ever in that thirty three miles, I think it is a fly water.

From

you know,

until October first. Yeah. No let it... You can't even wait your fly. So

like that. But you can...

But do those fish or aggressive. That's why those eggs exist exist. If you could still have success if they're in there, but you can't catch what isn't there. Yeah. And I'm hoping as

an optimistic hope springs the eternal guy that they're just late.

Yeah. And came morris from Fly water got Epic fish and on June fifteenth, but it was like the total unicorn, like, that came out of nowhere, you know, And still one day to start pushing at admission.

Yeah. You know, because it is ten more gifted anywhere and shouts out the fly water great company. Yeah

And, but anyway,

no. Talk and it again, it's

talking other anglers and stuff.

I was they're sixteen days,

getting in out fishing with clients and fishing on my own. And, I don't only even wanna tell you, how many encounters we had. Yeah.

Because I don't wanna flood it with a bunch of people,

you know, follow totally. It's good luck to anybody that goes it's great. And that to be on everybody's but it with too. It's just a cool place and Yeah. The history there alone is super fun, and it's gnarly waiting and super technical

casting and and technical fishing, and you know, I where we're in the sink tip there, You know, but only when the fence hit in the water, it Yeah. Other than that, I'm fishing is dry or or or a mud, you know. Yeah. And that's kinda my program and and this my clients,

what I'm our... It's who I'm already booked for the next... I'm booked for next year or two. I don't even have any opening. So that's...

That's awesome.

To how people are willing to go and not touch with me.

Testament into your conversation skills while I or whatever.

Your storytelling skills while they're just fl away.

There might be some of the... They they might love that

one of my clients called it my soothing late night radio show was voice when he's having a casting

fucking help down.

Because on the north, you know, it's it's obvious, like, you're on a rock, you're kinda like, not comfortable. And

if you fall, it's gonna get ugly

Yeah. But you have to execute this cast and make it come tight there and pulse it there if you wanna pulse through... Swing there and,

you know, and I... And I only fish one on one there. I did got a great couple last week, and and they were cool, but, you know, it's not a place where you...

But it like New Zealand or, like, if you're on its har trip or

you go with you guys, but only one person's ever... It's not like, hey Bob. You go up there and trash that water and like walk me tom.

You know, actually try to catch one. What? Totally. Totally. Alright, for you hedge one

with me, let alone you just randomly go fl away somewhere. You might piss somebody off up there. You might walk up on. So anyway,

I really, like,

it's funny...

When when we go saltwater fishing, we argue over whose time it is.

Up on the casting platform. Right? Because yeah. Totally. It's hey like, when... If it's ninety six degrees and no wind, it sucks being up there for more than thirty minutes, just like, I haven't seen anything. My eyes are burning, I wanna beer, you know, let me down. Yeah turn. Totally. But

but as you know, there's, like, and I think back of a lot of guy days I have. Like, when I would... Even when I fish from the boat, I'd be like, okay. You in the back, you just stop right now because I'm anchoring the boat we're to make some seven here.

If you both crush yourselves, that means I gotta cut all that shit off and re rig it, which takes time. Therefore, we're not being efficient. It's more efficient if one dude chalk it up at a time and men's it. And then then it'll be your turn next time.

With Bob and Bob,

can't take that shit. Then Bob will starts throwing it over the other side.

So it's like agonizing. Oh, totally. It's thinking about that wagon. Oh, no. It's like, you just wanna be, like, dude, be a good friend. Like, be a good friend and just wait. Mh.

Heck your buddy. If he scares it up. You get to happen. Right? That's totally good news Like you get to mess with them it's like, god, what a awful cast. You're buying the night. You know, Like, yeah. Absolutely. So

You can always really focus on one angle at a time usually no matter what venue it is. And and yeah. I know I know the delta is saying and cut. Is that alright. You're on the back, and I'm gonna heck this guy on the front. Dude on the back and the back cast, You know? And, totally. And he's flying back there. Don't worry about. Worry about. You You can't... See. I went with him one day. And I was physically done by the end of the. I'm like, I can't I'm make another can I throw that eyeliner again? Like

That was great. That real life fly. You sure. I I mean, Yeah. I I don't know if I have the stones. The stripe dude, like,

yeah, I'd love to fish with you guys you sherman down there. I Sherman needs to live

up in Tahoe and you do a little snow we're in together back and in Jamie Lau. You pass the road for me and I missed days. That was all.

That was all good times and

Bill was still around and you come up on occasion and man, you know, you get older and

then... And it goes by, like, so fast, like you said, like, yeah. I mean, I I was on this strands I bought that house and I was owed two and had it till

o ten. And whenever Jamie come up the road, he pull over I have a quick beer and session and, yeah. At old days and...

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I that was... I remember those days like they were yesterday I, you talked about Bill. I mean, bill taught me to Bay cast on a on the Truck River.

I remember I was traveling truck. No wait. Yeah. It was like

it was... You know, Jamie would do those clinics. You know, are, like, dealer days. Sure.

And Yep. In my mom, my parents had... My mom had...

She would always go up to lincoln City Oregon.

And there's the Sole river up there and the Salmon River and some of these big, steel rivers, and, you know,

they're just, like,

brush tunnels, you know, through that coastal forest. Right?

You know, I'd been I've been up there trying to roll cast within like, a eight eight Rp p

plus or something. You know, like, a fucking broom stick. You know what I mean? Like... What is they can be with an old cool off rod? Yeah. Right. I mean, it's say rod, But, like, I'm trying to, like, get to the far slot with this rod and, like some, you know,

style shooting head and

just

and

bill like Pyramid late to head. Oh, it's exact... That's that's funny. Said it's exactly what it was. Dude, like, tie it to the bumper and stretch it out, like, do the whole deal. Like And so Bill, like, brought out, like the Little be stuff if I could turn it over. Yeah Bill brought out, like, the European and the traditional sage Bay Rods and was just un cork. I mean, like, casting completely across the river, and my eyes, I was just, like.

Oh, my god. Like wow. I'm like, I need that. And so I I I got into it, you know, just specifically to go up and

not fl on these coastal rivers in Oregon, but

yeah. The whole scene, man, when when everybody was a roundup up there was great.

Yeah. Good times. Yeah.

So... Very good times. The the the other thing you and me completely connected on was our love and passion for Not dame football.

So...

Oh, man.

What do you... You see the new...

Do I have it right in front of me? Like, I'll tell you so... Oh, yeah. Okay. You know, we have

we have season tickets. And

I was completely committed to go into Wisconsin at Lamb field.

Like... Because I figured that's that's the only way I'm that's

right. Like, that's the only way I'm seeing Lamb field.

You know, that was much.

And, you know, canceled. And I was, like, really hurt because I was, like, that's that's... I'm not going to a packers game. Like, I can't that I can't justify the expense see the packers. But, like,

I can justify the expense to go watch Not dame and a very good Wisconsin team

at lamb. Absolutely.

And that got canceled. And kinda sort of their home game, but they'll be thirty thousand hours fans there too and the students for Wisconsin. We'll do the jump around thing. Like, totally.

You know, like.

At Lamb. Right?

So that got tundra. Yeah. And and then, you know, all the league started going own league, damper

down Yeah. And I'm like, what the hell is gonna happen to our football season, and then they join the Acc. And

I still have tickets. I'm still going back for the Cl game. Like, even if I have to watch it.

I don't know.

At a, you know,

a,

you know,

I don't know. At a tv south bend. Like, I don't know. I don't. Yeah. You you wanna be there. I wanna be and being... I wanna be ben this little Is that Florida to state game back there too?

Yes. Yes. It is. And that'll be a good one too. But I... I mean, I'm looking at this schedule? And I mean,

I don't... You know, it's funny because we...

We got an email from the university,

and,

like,

I I really have a feeling like, they're gonna be playing fans only or without fans. Excuse me, players only. You know what I mean? I can't imagine. Yeah.

Put ninety thousand in, you know, the stadium.

But...

No.

No. You know, the flip flipside is... Even the students, like, the

you know, that's the other thing it's, like, if you go to school there part of why you go to school there,

goes those things. Right? I mean,

would it got punched for those poor kids. You know what I mean it's for the alumni and the rich dudes and total it. You know what I mean? It's like,

on all these, you know, schools, like, you know, like, you go allow state at or Penn state, you know, the white out if like, it's part of your

your whole

experience that you remember college going forward, you know, and really so bad.

Well, you know, you gotta figure explain. That not dame stadium a quarter of that stadium is a student section. It's like like, I mean,

I think every kid gets a free ticket and they go. You know? I mean, it's...

Yeah. That's right. And pay their booze bill for the

towards the totally depending on there.

Totally. And that's great.

More power Like me to show there to go.

Yeah.

So

I don't know, man. I mean, looking at the schedule and the Acc. I'm I'm feeling good about it if we play.

It's if we play. Man you know,

the son of that Hogan because I...

So that's told we were talking about them staying sort of close to home this whole fall.

Yeah. Part of that, it's part of me giving us onto to the grand Ron,

was to watch college football on my couch. Okay. God. Yes. I have three refrigerators within fifteen feet of each other.

Not on the porch I tilt green sit on the forge, have a chew like,

watch football. I could go in. I've got our second family room they can have a second game going. Right? Like, Watch the evil Sec game in there and pop in and put it on pause, and then And then, like, I'm gonna go out in the garage and, like, blow off my driveway and I have everything on policy to beer out there, come back in. Total. Or the whiskey in the kitchen can still see that to... Like, I was, like,

and now the thought of of that being taken from me.

It's that.

No. I mean, I I literally.

I I went through my budget

you know, for for the

just, like, looking at bills and stuff a few years ago and I'm, like,

I'm not guiding on Saturdays.

Like I am not doing that. Like I am am making a... So in the summer, I'll crush myself an extra. Absolutely. Nate. Absolutely.

I'm just like, I'm not I'm putting my foot down. Right? Like, yeah. I'm like, I will guide six, seven days straight during stripe season in the summer. And then when football season comes, I'm like, and you know what? There may even be a get big game on Friday, like, I ain't guide. Like,

I I I... That's right. I I... It... It's... College football season is something that I look forward to so much and it would really too probably about, like, you is it's, like,

in my family, it's, like, it connects me with my dad.

It connects my dad with my voice. My brother My uncle.

Absolutely. I know you're the same way because we've talked about that. It's like grandpa off. Like, yeah. It is this multi

generational connection that, you know,

my ten year old could have nothing to talk about with Grandpa,

but they will wrap on Not dame football like nobody's business. You know what Mean? And... How beautiful is that? Oh. Yeah. Yeah

So to hat to not have it. Is, like, I I really try not to think about it, but it it it really bum me out. You know, I I

I have to think dude. I know it's next month. September twelfth is getting Yeah. Yeah. I... And it's the last game is on a Friday. Actually it gets North Carolina and that. He's got dude. Yeah. On a Friday night in Charlotte.

And it dude it's it's

Yeah. I put it out of my mind too, like, a lot of a lot of things. There's

in between now November fifteenth look there it's a lot to think about the the

part of no college football is not one did I enjoy

thinking about right now. No. I man. I mean, I I can give up a lot of trips. I can give up a lot of stuff, but, like, college football is such a foundational, and it sounds silly, But I mean, I'm not gonna lie. It's like a foundational element in my family's life. Like,

I'm really. Your wise too, like, did she drink the not dame and cool it

Magically.

She left it, you know, was she born into that right family that wasn't, like, her dad went the Usc. And she's, like, you're not marrying that to her catholic

Oh, well, no. No. I mean, I mean, I got standards. I wouldn't marry any girl from Usc. I mean, let's be real. That's just... Okay. You know. Yeah. No. My my wife was... You know, she was a cheerleader in high school. Like, she she totally gets

my outright and just

borderline insane obsession with not dame football and how I've completely

breaded it into our children.

And, you know, she's totally down...

She's totally down to go to game. She you know,

paints her face, like, she does the whole deal, But like, Beautiful.

She will, you know, she'll even go to Grandma Grandpa's house and, you know, watch me and grandpa scream yell the television. But, like,

she has this chair in our other living room that a lot of times like, on Saturdays,

watching the game. She will, like, go sit in the chair, put on her headphones and, like, watch something on her computer and just, like,

pretend that it's, you know,

every other word coming out of the other room is not, you know, a per profanity lace ti. You know, It's just

so our family dark similar.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And and I I have... I mean, is Leslie your wife, you know, who... With your scheduling and your program is obviously a Saint. We haven't really talked about Saint Leslie yet is I would I don't know her, but I would... The saint. Yeah.

How she taken college football?

She's done so good, dude.

And she wasn't into it before we met. And

and when we first started really dating and became an item, you know, we're living in tents in my old sixty seven camper trailer and

hotel rooms and crash at genomes and and

and then we... You were a real like, they were going...

Yeah. I know. Me and Andy Harris You talk about that a lot, like,

So, I'm a fishing guy. I'm gone all the time. I really like drinking lots of course like, especially on days off like, yeah. Nothing in my bank account. Like, you know, it's been anyway.

And and I'm obsessed with College football and pro football. So,

Leslie and I... Yeah. Yeah she's been to a couple steelers games. Oh, wow. And she's been to a couple oregon games. You know, we're we're not far from the ducks, and I do love duck. Too. They're, like, my second favorite team,

and we've been off and doing a couple times, great times, and

and, you know, I talked about the multiple Tv. So when

when, like...

You know, because I'll watch I bill watch, like, some bizarre, like, division three game at, like, ten. And I

weird. Or

not even like it. You know, I'm like, oh, boise state Fresno did. I'm gonna watch Oh, yeah. That that that like

Yep. Yeah. That eight o'clock, like, when think looks like Big West. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, and when I live back east, I missed all that stuff. So, you know, moving out west in ninety six the best thing ever to watch college football because it's on like ball night long. You yes. And us is.

Into the other room or the bedroom to watch which she needs to decompress and after, like, ten straight hours of college football game day, like,

upon waking getting the coffee going college came to his on herb street course. So, like, at and back when Lou was on just full, like, volume, you know, it's, like, full lot of merge and and the dog. But yeah.

Put it in Sundays, put this steelers Jersey on our little dog, Marley, and yeah. Since you've got

multiple steelers, Jersey...

That's awesome. And...

So it just... It was her birthday yesterday today by the way, and I got her a chase playful number eleven Steelers Jersey with her her maiden name Jar on the back.

And she liked it. Dude That Balls move, My friend ball seemingly.

It's like if you want wanna, like this but see generally, I think

I think he's genuinely like it. And she's, like, k. He's from B. That's awesome. Like even if like she yeah like Yeah. You. Good retention of of the players and everything. And...

Dude, I'm really Clay pool is on the steelers.

Like, I think he's gonna be a beast. Know if affected I did I was oh my god, dude. I, he is gonna be a beast. Yeah.

And god, hopefully, we have that too. Like in because I do follow the steelers feed and Chase is on with all rigged up with the uniform on, they put all those, like, you know, like, dude my two teams of steelers and Not dame are gonna be awesome this year. So they have some

wacky

situation like this happened

got punch. Oh, I know. And, I've been watching a little bit of the Nba, and like, without the fans, it's just not

man. Oh, you know? Yeah. I know as a player, you know, you know, I played call soon and not... We had fans at our games. But when you're playing, I, I really didn't,

you know,

but at times, I'm like, oh, wow. Like,

you know, in high school,

when it when it was packed and I playoff game and stuff and like, get this sideline look and see everybody like,

dude. It is a big part of the game. Like... Oh, yeah. The game played at... When Michigan plays Penn data at Penn they guess what? Penn state ro. Oh, Yeah. But every time, but they certainly help. It's the fact. Yeah. You know? Oh, absolutely. And especially in college football, man. I mean, it that's right. That's right. It's just so much energy, man. I mean, I always... You know, being out here in California. It's, like, being a college football fan. It's, like, that college football. People don't get it. People don't it. Yeah. They don't get it at all. And I'm like, did I bend to the Nine game? You standard games right or cow Oh, absolutely. It's embarrassing.

It is... Like, if I was a Stanford fan, and that was what turned up, Like, I'd be embarrassed.

Like,

I I I I don't even... Imagine being an a recruit and you go to, like, a penn state game. Yeah. During a white house, and then the following week go to the stanford game where there's twenty six thousand people there.

Thing against a good team. Maybe they're playing let's say utah. So, you know, we're for state, like, there might be twelve thousand people there and knobs cheering.

You're like... In ten thousand really people that's been shaking.

Yeah. Well, and that's like, ten thousand of those people are there to see the other team. You know? I mean, we went to the Not dame Stanford game last season.

Totally. We went to the stanford for Not dame game last season and it's like,

there's more not or dame fans here than Stanford. Yeah. I'm like, this is awesome. Right. Like, yeah. No. People just don't get it, and that's...

I I I think a lot of those big schools especially the Sec and maybe the Acc, like,

they're gonna play with those Tv contracts. You know I mean, I'm sure no name is gonna play to get that money,

but it just ain't gonna be the same.

That's part of the deal. They get the whole conference splits that Nbc money.

Gotcha. That was the big part of the deal. Gotcha. So that it gets spread along the whole Acc.

Gotcha. And

yeah. And it's no long term thing. It's amazing the power note. They could still kinda sneak in there.

Certain circumstances,

we're not gonna play, like, five games. We're gonna play our ten. Yeah. And we'll share this contract revenue, and we're a private school, we don't have to even share what all our other shit is As Yeah. Yeah. We're in. And we have to play them since close twice. So be... That's a thing Hogan. Not to sound like a homer,

but man. I think we we we match up well with Cl too. Oh, I think we're in that top spot this year. We got I think... Staying offensive line. Crazy

scope didn't.

I I think we match up well at. I did I'll be there, man. I I tickets flights. It's all booked, man. I I am...

I'll tell you ever since that Georgia game last year. And I don't know. You may have it discount at that one? No. No. But that Georgia game was the first time I'd seen a not dame team match up athlete on athlete

with an Scc team. You know what I mean? It was like... Since blue hole days. Absolutely.

Six. Absolutely. I mean? They're ninety three. Six we belonged there. We belonged.

We belonged. And Yeah.

That's... When I saw that on online. Two thousand twelve Alabama, not really. No. No. We didn't... That that... That was not the same league.

You know? So no one belonged with Alabama that year, I say.

I think that Alabama team was the best day ever had. I I would I would I would agree, you know. But once I saw them match up in that game, I'm like, and looking at cl in, I mean, we got a shot. You know?

Yeah. So... Yeah. No, man. Book you I love book.

Yes.

He... And he he's a California kid, man. He's from Sacramento.

So...

You know, that makes sense? Yeah.

So... Are you obsessed with college recruiting queue? Do you look at the whole rivals in two four seven sports and follow all these recruits that's the whole another level of

I have? No. No. I I do a lot. I get the

I get Blue and gold magazine, then the magazine on Not dame football that I read fairly religiously. So, yes. I do grandpa paul got it. They were sitting right next to his chair by the Tv with the big speakers in it. Yep. Yeah, you know, the radio.

Yeah. Okay. Did it like whoever was doing the radio games for the the Tv commentary... When I was a kid,

so this would be in the seventies.

I don't know who called the games then when they were actually on, but he I turned the radio on to listen to whoever was calling in on the radio.

That's

like... Sure. That's cool. Yeah. My grandpa grandfather one. As he smoked an entire pack of un unfiltered palm mall during the game and dropped an f bomb after replayed, it didn't go our way

with somebody fault. That's that's funny. Because had and uncle inherited did that.

Well, and you're from Pennsylvania. Right? Like, you're from you're from Pennsylvania. Yeah. And see that's where my dad's from from South Philly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well things the football

in our household there's there's a lot of profanity. You guys... Like, someone when non football people come over,

for whatever reason or if find the worst dude and I know you agree with this is if you get invited somewhere to watch a game and you're somewhere and you're, like, I just wanna watch the game. I don't wanna... And then somebody's like, I'm for the team in this color or

I don't like that coach. She... I don't... You know, and you're just there are people like, oh, you know, like, Paul just all those people like those kids so you can't believe they're going to school for free, and they want money, but, and then you start... Have care about all these, you know, like, oh, my god. Jimmy me out Oh, no. Dude. I can't... I can't... Like, my wife would not let me watch a game with anyone. Like, my wife. Like...

And and straight up, like, if if, like, child protective services came to our house during a not dame game, like my kids are gone. Because I am... Be of your children. Oh, I'm screaming. I am yelling.

I'm, you know,

crying.

I'm happy. It just... I would... Yeah. No. I mean, I... Like, my whole routine for watching an dame football game, like, requires

isolation. Like, I need to either be at my dad's house

or at my house. Like, I can't watch it with anyone else. Like... Because no one else

no one else is gonna watch it with the same intensity

outside of, like, a few family members. You know what I mean?

And even then Right? Yeah. You know, if I don't share the same opinion with dude. Oh, no. Yeah.

But it comes out with. Yeah. It is. You know.

And it's it's, like, how do you describe being at if, you know, in the front of the pit at a stick of it all show, You know what I mean Or totally a hot water music show or or it's, like, to somebody that doesn't get it. Maybe, like, how stupid you go open and sweat and trash. Around with everybody up there and say,

you know what I mean, it's not for everybody. No. But it is not for everybody. Yeah. You know. Absolutely.

Well, man. You you know that com website. One last thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Debt list dot com. Did you ever looked at that? No. What is that?

Set list dot com. You could punch in okay.

Hot water. I saw hot water music at the Ago in

two thousand and one, and their set list will come up and it'll show their set list they played. Wow. Sure. I saw

you know, operation Iv at the

And whatever, and it'll come up for you too at

what it rolling stone in nineteen sixty eight that

it's not kinda like this.

Yeah. It is incredible. Dude and I just wasted, like, five hours of your time because you're gonna... Oh, no. I I... Like, I'm literally been... Joe you went.

Totally... That's funny To say that because I was just going off in my mind, I'm like,

I saw the beast boys, and I... I'm just like, oh, I wonder what songs I heard. You know what I mean? Like, it just... Hey yeah. I would...

All the obscure punk shows I saw in the nineties and, like, that's great. So it got. Dude My Guy looked up the cypress Hill,

House pain,

chance the machine showed or the Cleveland Tag, you know, came and looked at all their settlers list. And I'm like, oh, my god. I was so drunk Found that barely. Remember what they played. Totally weight Sounds Yeah. You know. What songs did I miss? I wanna go see it now and just have, like, five years instead of, like, whatever I had. But I you, I probably thank for for control all I know. But yeah. You know,

but dude it's super fun.

That's a great one.

And that's another thing, man. I... It was funny. I was talking to chuck today, and we were talking about, like,

we had to talk workout some stuff for the week and such, but, like, talking about when live music comes back.

And, man, that is not right.

Well, I was talking... Yeah. I mean, like,

I was talking to him and he's like, dude, I've... You know, he had a whole European tour and he pushed that

to the spring.

I saw that. You know Yeah. And he's, like,

you know, there's a lot of promoter that are just, like, twenty twenty two. Like, we're not even talking twenty twenty one. You know, like,

you know?

Right Yeah.

You know, it's it's like, you know, when are people gonna be like, yeah, dude, let's take our shorts off and cram in to a small club and get sweaty and just... I know mash around together. Went over each other. Totally. Like, I know. After for the last two years, we haven't, like, gotten closer than six feet.

You know, like, one is...

You know, I I know God. It makes me so sad because I... I'm just like, god that is such a cath, like, part of,

like, what I love about music and life, but

I'm not sure if that's coming back anytime soon. You know?

So

it's a bummer... It's hard to say, and I'll give you one last thing about... Because we talked about the saint of my wife Leslie. Yes. Name leslie. I don't even know leslie, but she's married to you, and she's the same. You asked anybody. She's the same. I don't know how it happened. I

lucky you don't earn.

So my

anniversary gift.

Her ticket to the very first rage against machine show next year. All get to down at in Oakland.

She got those for you. Right.

Yeah.

Saint Leslie, it is.

And I've seen rage probably

fifteen times. I... On the bars. I saw at the second law of dudes the right before pearl jam played. Like, I'm not gonna

drop all these cool shows whatever. But... Yeah. They're one of my all time favorites. It's too that that did get out of it. Like, dude that first all believe I saw. They were like,

everybody's still wandering in there with nit balloons and shit, like, nobody was watching rage, and I didn't know who they were and I'm like,

what

like this band. Holy shit.

Wow.

You know? And

and then they played... You know, I went to school in Akron, Ohio.

My second school anyway. And we had a good cleveland music scene, and, you no. Not sales from there. So we had the industrial thing, and we had hard course seeing a lot of cool local bands, and, I mean, I was

I got rage against the machine. I was on student the board. I was... I started a snow board club there, so I had a boat

And we were talking about having a big band come... Big band coming in place. The dude we got great. We got their von at of play. We got panther. Oh we got corn. Like, dude like my past dates, like, in our

in our crappy little arena. You know what I mean? Yeah. It yeah. So...

No... I'm a huge trade fan as well. Yeah. Oh, dude. I saw play find Yeah now. Oh. And if the election goes bad, can you imagine, like Oh, they're gonna burn the place down.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's funny because I I saw rage,

at, I've seen rage... I'd say probably four or five times. And, like,

I've I saw that they were gonna tour again, and I'm like, you know what? That's a band

from my, I, essentially my youth

that I would pay top dollar to go see again. You know what I mean? Like, that... I'll I'll spend know whatever that's gonna cost. Because, you know it's gonna cost. You know what Mean? Like, that's not gonna be. At the moment.

Yeah. Owing their expenses because if... They can't, you know, because all the scalp or all these companies buy up all these tickets. Right? Yeah. So the tickets are crazy expensive. You know, Tom In stack. Those guys don't want people paying pete hundred dollars or two thousand for a floor, but it's the way it is now. Yeah. But I'm in a place in life. And Leslie, I know she paid big bucks for, and I think you're beyond belief. And

I'm looking really forward and hopefully by next fall.

And we're not... I don't wanna be in the pit anymore. That's the other thing. No. No. No. Right. Nothing like that. I'll I'll die up there now. Feel by ears. I wanna sit in a very comfortable seat.

Yeah.

Mh. I wanna sit. I'll very. I'll watch the young. Yeah. I'll, I'll I'll be happy to watch that.

Drink anyway. Fifteen dollar beer. Yeah. And sitting in a very comfortable exactly. Yeah. Six of them. Yeah. It'll be great. And

That's. Know it's funny. Yeah. Talking about Rage, dude Chuck old manager,

who I used to work with a little bit for some some of the benefit shows was Bridget wright,

and

she was rage manager.

Like, she came up with... She was managing rage. Like that she was rage manager.

And

would it car? The nineties,

Listen to her talk and I'm

Oh, just the the stories and the, you know, the,

you know, managing rage in those early days and even through the the rest of their career, like, it was...

She's a bad woman man. She she was awesome. I learned a lot of... A lot about a lot of things from her.

But it was really interesting. That is awesome stuff. Yeah.

So... Man. And I still got hook out with with you Chuck and do a steel head trip like,

I know painted a picture of it, but I really... Both of us really wanna do it. Yeah. Chuck new thing is he... He's... I think he's, like, I think today, Friday, he closes...

I think they closed escrow today on their new place,

and

he bought this... Where is that it? It's right out of grass in nevada a city.

Kinda...

Just out country from where...

Mary? Yeah. Same area, but this new place has

a bass pond

on it. It's like this one acre,

one and a half two acre bass pond, and he has gone

Like, this is all he's been thinking about. Like, he's researching, you know,

weeds and depths and, like, he's selling... Like, I think the dude has sold anything that he can find to, like, finance

the propagation of Florida strain their mouth in his pond. Right. Because he hasn't been playing out getting that I'm right. Oh, dude. Died money, so I know he's not buying shit with that. Totally like

with that. They're like,

I think does that mortgage broker. They're like, how much do you make your like, what? Oh, dude. You we know, like, we don't claim everything

so. Like, I need to survive? Like, yeah. You want how much? Yeah.

Oh, I don't even I don't even wanna go into the... I mean, yeah. You think of... Yeah. Yeah. So okay. But, like, it's these random ten music business is a lot like the guide business. It's like... Yeah. I mean.

Oh, yeah. Well, I always I always remember one time he was he was talking and somebody asked him, and they were like, you know,

what would you rather your son be a musician or a fly fishing guide.

And he's like, he didn't even fucking skip a beat. He's like, oh a fly fishing guide. I'm like,

That about says it here. Like, you know? I'm like, wow.

But dude he's selling... I mean, I gotta a... I've been getting text, like, randomly on the river of, like, hey, you want this? You wanna buy this, and it was, like, you know, everything from, like, vintage fend amps to like, a miter saw. You know? I'm, like, dude.

Ra.

I could use both. I... Yeah. I got room for both. We're at. Put it.

Okay. That's the key. Right? If you got room for both, I'll buy both, and then told a good place and it's still sort in the family instead of craigslist list having somebody come over. And. I'll trade you jet key for that half.

Totally. So

he's all about grown big bass now, man. And I've... I'm, like, dude. Yeah. I mean, if... I'll buy it if I can could the pond.

Right. Alright.

So... Epic.

Well, cool, man We can make it happen this year. Yeah. For next... In in twenty

twenty one. Like, maybe it's southern in coast.

Because Might... Yeah. Who knows what's gonna happen next year. And...

Oh, man. I mean, I think it happen. Let's make a point of it. Alright. Yeah. I I... Me and Chuck, really, I know been too well. It has and just...

I don't care where we go. I don't even get to steal it fish early anymore. So it's, like, wherever. Yeah. You know, I don't care. Yeah. We can meet the halfway down. We'll go fish in the out or something together that'd be totally you. Yeah.

Well, cool, man. It was really great having you. I mean, you and me can sit and catch up. I mean, shit forever.

So

we we don't wanna bore everybody. Yeah. Totally with our our discussions of college football and obscure rock bands and swing and steal at flies. So why don't you I mean, only it's you. We only need a few to like it and they're like.

Totally, Totally. We are not shooting for the mask. Very interview.

People. They're like, last winter actually when vale was getting back together and it's like, how many people listening to this? Like, how about even find this? Like, It was awesome. You. Totally. And and he said something like that. He's like, yeah. They'll get back together. I don't... I I don't even know

I wanna see a bunch of forty year olds jump like. Saw I was like, forty years ago. Totally. Totally. This is not gonna be pretty but we're doing... I I pay.

Right. And... I'd pay two hundred bucks for that ticket to go see him in a little. I bottom of the old place or something. You know what That means, like, Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So

why don't you why don't you lay? The water music tour. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, they're... They they... They're gonna have some dates, man. I mean I I think hot water gonna... The Chuck was talking and they've pushed some stuff back, but they'll be around. I... You know,

those guys just keep on ticking. Well, you know?

So... If they're out this way, dude, we... I gotta get down there and and yeah, let let me know You know what I mean? Absolutely. Because like is bam. I'm, like, my calendars, like, dictated years in pants. And

but I'd had moved some stuff around to go and see a hot water show again. It's been a long time since I've seen those guys are in a avail and they he had to be pretty epic Yeah.

Well, on that note, Keep young. Well why don't you let everybody know where they can reach you? Kinda what you're doing? I I I know you got a pretty full calendar, but I'm sure you could always use a you, like, minded people to, you know, get out on the water and such.

Yeah. Absolutely.

My email, listen to how old school it is. It's dax that's. My first and last name at aol o l dot com. Did keep in aol l and his.

Keep an Aol l and business. Yeah. First and last name.

And I got a I got a website. I don't really look at all that much. I don't know how updated it is, but it's dax slide. Easy you remember just punch dax slide and

it describes some of the hosted stuff I'm doing and and and

and and stuff. I don't know. And it is. I should look at it again.

And yeah. Excuse me an email and it

you you like anything you heard, then we'll try to plug into the tribe. Yeah. Yeah. We have a new Leslie and I actually have a new website come out the Each on it.

Dot com.

And there'll be some stuff coming up there and

probably put some, I guess, you know, blog stuff and articles and, you know, Yeah. Some conservation stuff for sure. We're waiting this way into that as we talked about earlier and Yeah. Not just about and it stop

preservation of on places that we hope your kid and their kids,

can can go out and experience. You know, it's it's just

Beautiful thing.

Absolutely. Well, hey, man. I really appreciate you coming on the show and and hanging out and talking and,

hopefully, we'll get up there and fish together sometime soon.

Alright, Hogan. Thanks for having man. I really really appreciate it. And it's been great talking to buddy. Alright. You too. Hey, guys. I just wanna thank everyone for,

logging in and listening, and

me and Dax will probably keep talking, but I'm gonna I'm gonna turn this thing off and thanks to our sponsors and everyone that's tuning in listening in these Nor cal podcast podcasts. Alright. Have a good one.

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