NOAA's San Joaquin River Restoration Program - Hilary Glenn

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Barb life fishing podcast on your c host Chad. I got Nick hanna.

On this call, Nick what's up.

Are you there? Hey, man. How are you doing? Good.

I'm hoping a one day get back into a studio, so we don't have these awkward pauses like we've been having the last like, five episodes

But,

with us today is Hillary Glen. Hillary with Noah, and she is working on San Joaquin River restoration in in the San Joaquin Valley, yeah, Hillary, did I get that right? Did I butcher her it.

Yep. That's what I do. Yeah. Cool. And then, what division Of Noah, are you are you, part of just so everybody knows where we're at?

So I work specifically for a no fisheries,

which is encompasses the Marine.

Fisheries service.

Is kind of one in the same. And I work out as Sacramento, which is our California Central Valley office. Yeah. So our office

encompasses everything from about S the all the way down to front dam and,

in near Fresno,

and then, out to into the Delta as well. Okay. And and John, John Am ambrose that was working on the Mc cloud restoration project.

He's... He's out of your office too. Correct?

Yeah. Yeah. So he works with the more Northern end, and I work on the more sudden in our connection. Do you... Does one wear red and one wear blue or no, like the blood in the grips? No. We all wear blue.

That's cool.

So let's let's talk about the San Joaquin

River, well, the valley

historically. Like, you know, why do we even need restoration, I guess is is the the question. And before we answer that one? I think we need to just have a little geography lesson for folks that maybe aren't in California,

and even some folks in California.

Can you kinda let's talk about roughly where we're where we're located on the map in California

for this project? Yeah. For sure.

That So we're talking about,

kind of the southern extent of the,

of the central valley, And so that's near, fresno no clovis rivera area.

Lots lots of ag over there,

and closer to this the eastern Sierra,

then then kind of up north, which is is north Northern Sierra.

And so the Central Valley is pretty unique.

In California because we have... We're aligned by these kind of giant mountain

to the east and these

relatively large mountains also to the west, which is the California Coastal range

and it creates this bowl,

which for a very long time,

basically captured water and sediment. So that would run off these mountains and made this kind of

seasonal

flood plain, Marsh habitat that was really good

for raising,

not just fish, but all sorts of different animals, but also created very, very rich soils,

which farmers today utilized to grow,

tons and tons of different agriculture, all the way from,

nut cloth to rise to,

citrus and,

lettuce and tomatoes and and anything that you normally think of,

so the... Our geography really created this kind of unique environment and

a lot of different animals

and fish learn to

adapted do to take advantage of these areas.

And then... Were... Was there any mining going on, like like in the Hub area

around there or no. Eight. In the eighteen hundred. Not to the same extent.

So

the seven...

Sierra. The southern Eastern Sierra

are really, really picky. So they're very, very tall,

and which was really good for spring ranch chin salmon, which is the specific fish that I work with.

And and the reason that they were really good for spring on is because the super tall Peak mountains

would capture all of this snow, and it's really a no drip system

meaning that that snow would persist all the way into summer

and create,

really nice cold

water that would then slow down into the valley and bring have to hold all summer long. Kind like, what you're undo. Mh.

And so in... They would hold in these areas with this really

cold

snow out that was fed all summer long from the,

kind of receding

snow catcher prints in the in the southern Sierra.

So

the mining was, I think less,

There was definitely a great deal of gravel mining,

on the Valley floor, Mh. Which which is kind of one of the problems that we run into with gravel pit on the river. But less it's the gold mining than in that Northern Era.

Okay. And then in terms of stakeholders, let can go ahead.

You explained that super well but by the way, Hillary. I mean, I I feel like I have all the podcasts we've done, not a lot of people have talked. Talked about that. And I just wanted to go over it real quick as, yeah. At,

you know, the... And the Sacramento main River, Feather River, Maryland Yu, all the Valley River up

by S all float south. Mh down in into the Delta.

What are... What are the

the tread to the San Joaquin River, and it... And it flows the opposite way. Right? It goes Yeah flows north to the Delta. Right? Yeah. And so it's the San Joaquin my college should've start with it. Spin joaquin River are California second largest River, and it's... And it's super unique that it it does slow north.

So basically, it comes... This the San joaquin named them comes down from the mountain. So you think Spin on, like Nam pools area, Eastern Sierra, like, devil's post pile that kind area, and it comes down, and then it hits Fresno,

and then it goes a little bit farther, and then it just makes a hard turn north,

and goes all the way to the delta and need up with the sacramento river group.

And so the trim,

the major trends

of of the San Joaquin

are the Spanish loss, in the northern part,

the Cal,

the t and the mer.

And each one of those

has a has a major rim dam on it. I think other than the Cal.

Is the king

before we got to. So the king is a little different.

It's not always connected to the San joaquin river.

And it wasn't always connected to San joaquin River. The kings fed into this giant in Inland blake.

That was pretty

that was pretty shallow. And so it was super ep. So in big water years, a big flood years, like, like, two thousand

seventeen and two thousand nineteen,

The kings will be connected to the San joaquin River. But in other years, we have less water, it's it's not connected.

Okay.

Not to make it confusing.

Not right.

You have.

Yeah. Just... Yeah. Like, just stakeholders in that in that particular waters showed, Hillary.

I assume Ag is one of them, but it... Are there are there municipal, like, you know, fresh water kinda things going on too? Terms of people needing drinking water and whatnot?

For sure. So lots of the smaller towns,

along the san joaquin team, get their get their water from different sources off the river.

In But Ag Ag guess one of our

our biggest stakeholders as well.

Okay. And I assume because it used... Historically used to be a flood plane that there's all kinds of irrigation in in place not only for, you know,

not only for, like, water convenience, but also just flood control.

Yep. Yeah. So the stabilizing team is a little

different in the Sacramento and not a large part of our flood control system is actually separated.

From the old,

river channel itself. So you have these kind of parallel systems, which creates the own

interesting dynamic when we're trying to reintroduce Fish in picking past ways that we need to concentrate on for those fish and and whatnot.

So... Yeah. There's definitely heavy flood blood control and then,

lots of lots of,

yeast by egg. And I Are you kind of alluding to this this notion of efficient printing and and finding its nasal stream when it returns and just the signal to loss ratio that is there because there's these two systems?

Well, actually, it's it's...

So so

getting into this...

It's it's actually where we're going to concentrate our funding

as a restoration program on creating fish passage.

Because the river actually was dry

in major parts of it for for quite a long time for about sixty years,

because of the way that water was routed

from Miller Lake

in Bryant dam, which is the

the the rim... The large rim dam that that kind your Fresno that's on the head headquarters in the saint joaquin.

So putting water

back in the river,

we've had to kinda figure out, where it's best to do that and where we can

put water back in the river in a end and effect,

least amount of people

and and folks along the river,

And so it's it's a little complicated.

And... Yeah. I mean, it it sounds like it... So

and and is that part of what this restoration program is is doing right now? Is that kinda like, basically the the key thing you're trying to just navigate?

Yeah. There... There are two actual main goal,

of the restoration program.

The first one is is pretty intuitive and that's the restore fish populations to good condition in the main stem,

of the river. And so that's

specifically point out spring and chin,

but also fall run chin in in native

species as well.

And then there is a second goal

to avoid

adverse water supply impact. We to,

long term contractors in and, other

folks who get their water supply off the river.

So we have these kind of... And they're both equally

as... As important in the settlement

So we have these two kind of,

I wednesday that they're competing, but kind of different goals

and different folks who

play different roles in both of those goals

at the same time. And so we always need to be cognizant of, of both of those

parts of the settlement whenever we make big decisions in the program.

Yeah. It just seems go ahead. Is considered good good condition to simply this fish. What does that what does that mean? That's the million dollar question. Right?

So to us, that means a self sustaining

population of salmon,

and other fish.

Okay. And so we have lots and lots of different guidelines for for kind of what that means and lots of plans for the future,

and lots of numbers and targets to hit.

But

you know, we're still kind of in the beginning of this. So, every little bit of success feels like a huge

feels feel hugely successful Us. But we're still a very long ways off from hitting that. Good conditions self sustaining populations of salmon.

How do you... Cool? That that's it. Go ahead. But No, go ahead.

I just... It's

it's an interesting picture to paint. You know, you think of

going back in time of all the, sediment being washed down from our mountain range creating this,

meat ecosystem that had busy bears, and I mean, you know,

all these different animals taken advantage of it like you said, you know, and then man came in and and do our increase in population,

and

agriculture, we started diverting all these different waterways. And I think it was in nineteen... And I'm just talking about specifically at the San Joaquin nineteen, and the nineteen forties

they built the dam that ended up drying up the fan joaquin and and and getting rid of all these

different moving into spring one and and and phone following them but this thing on being the the main one you guys just focusing focusing off. And then that's

created

a lawsuit

against...

And and can you feel the rest of this in? I'm trying to just paint this picture, right, that and I don't know if I did a good job of it.

Is that I.

You just... You're doing a great job. Yeah. So in the nineteen forties Fry dam was constructed,

in Frank Davidson, Frank, California and it holds

Miller reservoir.

And so that was created

in the thought that if we can send water.

To kind of the eastern

southeastern Valley,

we can,

increase,

ag over there and and create a lot of jobs for coke.

And so that dam, Brian dam was created,

specifically

to be able to send water

south and a little bit of water in the as well. So they created the frank current canal and the Modern canal at the same time,

be able to distribute that water from the southern

Sierra in in those two directions.

And when that was done,

they

the

California made a deal

with a bunch of farmers who who,

worked from the San Joaquin and got their water on in the San joaquin team to exchange those

San joaquin water right for

water from the delta. So that created the federal pumping

system,

which is

old man.

Why is it?

I don't... It's it's the... It's there's a lot of layers to this. Yeah. They are. So that saved the Delta mendoza canal. There's the words I was looking for.

So in... So the farmers who are on the stand joaquin team downstream.

Of,

Militant lake or fried dam,

now get their water from the Delta Mendoza canal. And that water is pumped from the delta south

to those guys.

So they intentionally,

So the the government intentionally dried up parts of the San Joaquin river to be able to distribute water more widely

into the Central Valley

to create farming jobs.

And obviously, that...

Was not great for the river itself or the river ecosystem and was fish that, used it as a mig pathway.

And so, basically,

extra

finger run

from that part of the area as well as ballroom run.

An extra. It's a fancy word for Yeah. Place forcing something to go...

Is a fancy word for... Means it it's not extinct completely. From that species... System... From the north, but it's it's... Yeah. It's it's

from that specific area.

Yeah. And as as far as spring run go, that they were the largest one of the largest wren in, California on the Sandbox joaquin. Correct?

Yeah. So it's estimated that there were over six hundred thousand fish that used to turn

to the Sand the San Joaquin River each year and then hold

and then swan

in the fall.

Wow. So,

alright. So the... What you're responsible for is to find basically areas of opportunity to make those returns as

least friction as possible. Is that kind of like, if I

reduce it down to that. Is that is that correct?

Sorry. You cut you cut out a little bit What was that? I was I was saying, like, the the whole purpose of of the restoration program. Your your challenge is basically to find

areas of opportunity are that are the least.

Have the least amount of friction to facilitate a return of of the the Salmon Correct?

So it's it's it's...

So

So

sort of. So Nr,

sued,

the federal government and

and in nineteen eighty eight on the basis that the,

California gain code vision game code section,

five nine three seven was violated and and what that says is that the owner of any damn gel allows sufficient water at all times to pass over and around or through a dam.

To keep in good condition any fish but maybe

planted or is exist below the dam.

And so Nr energy was saying you guys don't

have the river connected,

the fish are extra from the area. Therefore, you're not, keeping the fish below the day in good condition. And,

that went on for that lawsuit went on for a very long time and finally in two thousand sixteen. Or sorry. In two thousand six, it was settled.

And during that settlement agreement, created,

those two goals that I talked about earlier were created.

The

restoration goal, and then the water,

and then the water goal is the water management goal as well.

So what we are tasked with,

as as N in the and a few other federal agencies to

bureau of reclamation, you us Wildlife life service, California department of,

Visa California Department of Efficient Wildlife,

and the and D, the Department of Water

Resources are all tasked with

creating,

an area where our spring run can come back e self sustaining and creating that that that that dish population in good condition.

Okay. Well, also,

dealing with the water management goal at the same time. And when you say an area, you're talking about a specific area with with spawning habitat in a way to get to that spawning habitat. Is that right?

Yes. So it's it's...

There's a few different. We have a few different approaches in in in, kind of our a map our overall plan. And and first of all, is to get water back in the river,

so to reconnect those habitats.

And then,

create

the fish passage because there's been a lot of modifications to this area,

many of which don't allow vol passage of adult or juice an mouth fish, and then to also

start a small conservation hatch

to reestablish the population and that will live below Frank dam.

Below, Brian Dan, there's still

enough gravel and holding habitat to be able to support

bring grand

bonnie and holding over the summer.

For for the new listeners because... Vol passage is something that comes up a lot. Can you can you

can you just kind of, you know, explain what that means to the folks because we're adding new new listeners all the time, a lot of people that listen that have been with us for the last four years know what that means, but there's a contingent of people that don't. So if we could explain that to be. Yeah.

So traditional passage simply means that the fish can move up and down the river on their own. That means that juvenile out can get all the way... It from where they are born. I'll out past the golden gate by themselves and then come back as a all the way by themselves. Yeah. So you don't need a truck or you get need it. Yeah.

Right. We. Right. And based off what you're been saying. It sounds like tim joaquin is probably the most.

What how does it... It's almost like a maze of canals and waterways that these fish have to now try to navigate.

Compared maybe some other places.

Because you mentioned the bryant canal and the made canal, you know, and and all these different is that kind of going into like to what you're talking about to as well?

So there are lots of diversion

on the river itself, and there's a couple of low head damage that are actually large

impediments to, especially adult

adult passage, but those those really big canals to see that you just named are actually behind the damage itself for those two our, pull it off our off our radar and fish won't. Okay. Have an interaction with them. So yeah. So we work with a lot of,

water users in the area to

be able to modify

their structures

to allow for fish passage, but also make sure that we maintain their ability to divert water in the way that they need to. And for their for their livelihood.

Okay. And then

it it... It's gotta be challenging, like, just from an operations perspective to kinda like, look at this this entire system,

irrigation system and the waters shut itself holistically

and then figure out, you know,

where there areas of opportunity or in terms of, you know, intervening and putting either

retroactively putting new new fish passage in place like a, you know, a a different ladder system in a particular

dam or or we're,

etcetera, etcetera.

How do you guys, like,

how do you guys look for the low hanging fruit? Like, what are you looking for specifically, you know, and I'm sure there's multiple passes and multiple phases. But what's your... What's a criteria for, like,

the low hanging fruit stuff. Is that am I making sense?

Yeah yeah. No. No A hundred percent. And so,

so we actually break down the river

into the five different reaches, and then... At at the beginning of the program. So quite a few years ago,

D which is the California Department of water resources did a report on the major fish passage barriers,

the program will need to

at modify or or alleviate, and to be able to get directional passage.

So basically the bureau reclamation took that report and said, okay. These are, like, this top four priority ease,

and also, many of those are called out in the

settlement language itself,

in you us Will wanna know the paragraph to eleven

they they all of these different

just passage areas that need to be alleviate to make sure that the program is successful. So there's been quite a lot of background research

done on what the major areas that we need to focus on our. So we really have that report and then also that, just the settlement itself that calls out the major areas that we need to focus on. And there is

quite a lot of discretion that goes into it as you imagine with five different agencies, but also quite a few other

stakeholders as well.

And then some of these there's been pretty big structures that we're going to need to modify.

And so there's just many, many years of design and implementation and biology,

and, you know, pre

pre construction,

surveys and then geological surveys and then there'll be a kind of post construction stuff as well.

So it's it's still it's always kind of a moving target,

But each year,

we learn a lot,

especially, since two thousand sixteen, which is the first year that the river was reconnected

officially with restoration flows

since

since Trying Brian dan had been built, and it's actually been connected

since then. So we have really, really learned a lot

in the last four years

about what areas are most important that we really need to focus on and kind of, which ones

we can get fish passed right now. And then

along with that with the restoration part of it, what areas have opportunities, for building really beautiful rear habitat or

spotting habitat

for for some of our Juvenile allison and

how we're going to kind plan that out as well. Is there anything on the road map in terms of,

flood plain

utilization for for sm, like, like, what they're doing what what Cal doing in in the, you know, around yellow?

Y yellow by time.

Yeah. So we

we have a bunch of areas

identified as potential

places where we can do step levi.

Because some of our early reports have definitely

pointed out that we need such such amount of area to be able to rear these fish

as they move down the river. And so

we haven't,

completed it kind of that work yet, but

the bureau of reclamation is in the process of purchasing some of those lands for various construction projects. In within those construction projects.

There's a huge focus on making sure that we have room to step back those levi and kind of create these

engineered flood plains that we can just let the river,

go ahead and do its job and, hopefully,

those those areas will

black as a as a planes do for for juvenile salmon and kinda help grow them up. That's cool. And then are those... Go back go back real quick. Yep. Well, he can go back real real quick. I'm sorry, Chad about the,

reconnect in in two thousand sixteen. And And the reason I'm asking is could during that time obviously, California was dealing with a a pretty substantial drought. And so I'm sure that has maybe had some setbacks back Don't know there's nothing to talk about but in where where is that

reconnect connection,

specifically?

So,

towards the area, so

the

a little bit of water was allowed to come from Bryant Dam,

when it was... Created and that was all based on water rates

downstream

of the dam,

But then there is a couple of substantial places where the river actually would go dry.

And so the reconnect connection was to take water for all the way from frying dam and then release it and re wet those areas that had been dry,

since since the the the dam was operational

and

how that works is that, each year,

the program, the restoration program is allocated

a specific amount of water.

And then the restoration administrator

who is appointed by the secretary

of interior, I believe,

his name is Tom Johnson.

He he kind of shaped that water,

be able to to send it down the river

with the home of the technical advisor advisory committee and the and the agencies within in the program as well.

So we've actually had allocations before two thousand sixteen. But because of those

really,

kinda gnarly drought years. Our water allocations were so low that it wasn't enough water to reconnect the river. So two thousand sixteen was the first opportunity

to reconnect the river

with...

Specifically with restoration closed.

Yeah.

And so, like, we have a tiered system, so I think we have six different

years in our hydro graph

six. Yeah. We have six different years in our hydro graph ranging from. Critical low, which is least amount of water, which is, like, two thousand fourteen

to, a wet year, which was, like, two thousand seventeen when we get out. It is the most amount of water,

based on what the settlement says.

Gotcha.

All larry intricate. Yeah. It sounds like it. And then, you know, in terms of

going through this, you know, picking off the, you know, all the all the things that to do list, if you will, that was that was cut it was an out outcome of of the agreement.

Are there multiple teams working on it at any given time? Or you guys kinda work as, like, like, a, you know, kind of a swat team and and go to one one specific location at a time and and do what needs to be done there and then move to the next one? And and what what is your day to day role in all of that? Like, what do you do specifically?

So each agency kind of has a, different role based on what they, you know, what that agency is sort of responsible for.

And so, like, reclamation is handling a lot of the

contracts for,

doing these large construction projects and they're also...

The fund so they they deal

a lot of the money aspects and buying land and things like that.

And also engineering.

But,

under that same lens, everything that they do, especially when it comes to something like a fish passage truck sure.

They can consult with both n and Cvs.

And, you, it's Fish wildlife life service because we're the fish

agencies

within the program, and so we can provide that sure

expertise into the biology of how these things need to work in Cd and in Them specifically have,

fish passive engineers. So

engineer to,

work almost exclusively

with,

creating structures

that are good for fish.

And so we all kind of have our own hats, but we all work in concert with each other aren't and then are in constant

communication on many, many different aspects.

And then you also have the the kind of, monitoring and search handling side, and that's mostly done through

Us and wildlife service, California apartment fish Wildlife.

And then,

through reclamation as as well or to start, the bureau of reclamation

as as well.

And then And then we have even to have even more on there. We have a, a hatch tree, a small conservation hatch, which is run by cvs.

No. Though... And so what... Yeah. Yeah. Now. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry.

I was say... And then so from from what I do to simply every day. So from some N

side is we do a lot of the, regulatory work, the,

permitting, making sure that everything that those guys can do is is totally kosher and and can run smoothly,

you know, because we're working, we are working with endangered species.

And then also consulting on these on these large projects,

through our through our biological

expertise our engineering expertise.

Okay. My my question was around funding. So.

For this particular project is

are there funds already earmarked and locked locked into, you know, I guess, committed to getting this done? Or

could those funds go away if there was a a regime change? Say,

the federal or state level, and and the new

administration that comes in isn't... Is either, you know, against what doesn't believe in it or there's a lobby or something goes on. Like, how does that all work? Like, I'm starting to realize that there's this whole

other side to all this stuff that is really driven by money and politics.

You know, without getting too political? I just wanna understand like, how... Is is the money that drives you guys it pays your salaries that pays for this... These these

these

engineering projects? Is that is that money locked up? Or could it be... Could it go away if if there's a regime change?

So if it's

the the settlement?

Was signed into law

in in two thousand six or two thousand seven. And so this is to as far beyond my expertise. But,

we do have a federal

allocation

each year that is is,

that is kind of that it's pretty much locked in.

But then we're also always looking for for other funding versus business as football because as you imagine this is a a big program.

Yeah. Didn't take a very long time and and cost quite a bit of money.

So it's it's kind of, I think the best way to angela to have is, like, a bit of both.

Yeah. Okay. We're always looking for different ways to fund things, but we we do have

like, it's... There is a a law that was signed. And

and and does allocate a specific amount to the program.

Okay. And then, I mean, the nature of of these things also I'm learning take take sometimes

generations. And

how how do you guys deal with, like, you know, I always say I always say this on the show, but, Mike Tyson said everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face.

You've got a plan. Mh. You've got a plan, you know, mitigation strategy in in in place, but let's say, you know, hydro that ear blows. Certain weir out or something and all of a sudden, you guys have to, like, you know,

instead of working on this one we're and putting a ladder and you actually have to completely go, you know, a hundred a hundred yards north and do something else on a different thing. How how much room do you guys have

when, you know, shit comes up, and you gotta deal with it

financially, like, are you do you guys have enough latitude to kinda make quick decisions and and change

change the game plan in light of all the the stuff needed

litigation wise to get it to the point where it became a lot where you can actually do this restoration work.

So that's a

that's actually a really great question because

one of the biggest things that we've build into a lot of our stuff, Especially from our side on on the regulatory side the ours is,

is you try to build in that flexibility

because we... The program has been, you know, happening for over,

ten years. And

you see a ton of shifts. You see it in personnel changes, and Yeah. And, you know, just just how many... How dynamic

our water system is here in California, each water year brings a new

challenge, but also

discoveries of how to

overcome some of these challenges

as well. So everything that we do has to be super

flexible,

and it's something that we build in, and we are constantly

talking about. And I think one of the the biggest

resilience to the program is that we do

have five agencies, and we stay in constant

communication,

with each other, so that nobody is kind of left off of the decision block,

and that we're all always trying to strive to be on the same page

for the program. It's self. So so building in that flexibility really helps us to be able to maneuver some of these big changes that that just just

just happen.

And then then that those relationships that we build and between

agencies have also

been really beneficial in in,

being able to navigate those

those,

kind of, you know, punches as well.

Can you can you talk a bit about the communications piece? Between agencies and like, you know, tactically,

like,

rubber meat road, what what you guys are doing? Are you leveraging like, you know, what kind of communication software you guys using or you do you do, like, the weekly stand up meetings, conference calls like, just at a high level. How do you guys k. Operate that that part of it because it's always interesting to me. You know, I'd I'd always go back to, like, you know, the the folks that have to deal with the hatch and trying not to dew water

reds.

Need to be in contact with the guys that run the dam releases and things like that. Is just a really simple example. This is sounds even more complex than that.

Mh.

Yeah. And and so we have,

we have multiple

levels of inter agency collaboration. So there is a program management team for kind of all the leads from different agencies get together and and,

meet every every other week. And then we also have,

multiple different groups that at the staff level

that meet,

in some cases weekly. Like, right now, we're meeting

at the staff level weekly because if there's so much going on in the system, and, at the moment we got juvenile, you got adults to that,

water

allocation changes going on all the time. So we in constant

communication with each other, and that's through both

conference calls about different things. We have lots and lots of different subgroups that talk about specific things like

genetics and the hatch

and the h

operations, and then we have

totally different groups to talk about

environmental

compliance, so that's making sure that all of the

permitting permitting and whatnot is is going to the correct layers. And so it's really

taken a long time to put all of that structure in place, and it takes a very long time to be able to

maintain those,

kind of meetings and be able to, like,

mentally shift from one to other especially be have multiple meetings in a day with the same people on different subjects.

But it's something that you kind of

have to learn for the longevity

of the program

And then we also involved quite a few

outside

entities

who are experts in other fields like we have...

We over in constant contact with our genetic genetics team from the southwest fisheries science center in Santa cruz, which is,

noah run so that we can make sure that we are providing,

the best genetic data for our conservation Hatch. And so those guys are

communication with the hatch folks

and

our other named staff and

some of the the the folks who are out in field connect, like other genetic data. So have many many different groups,

that all kind of pivot between each other with

like,

a a quite a large group of of program scientists

who are just

we've been in it both on the time when we'll all know each other and

try to keep these things kind of going and it... And I think one of the things that,

really important

is that all the folks on this program

that I work with directly,

really care about getting this

getting this started and and making sure that this keeps going and really cares about the the goals of the program.

So everyone is quite invested and you get these

really

good in

conversations about bought lots of different things on the program and it creates a very

robust

scientifically the principal

plan,

when when we get to a, kind of end of those conversations. And sometimes they can take it quite a long time, but,

it really shows how much everybody has invested in it, and I think we get some really

great outcomes from it.

Yeah. The the term you use scientifically def.

Is an interesting one, and that's another thing that I'm I'm noticing a pattern is

is like these projects, if there's any... If there's ever any opposition of the project.

It's always like, the opposition will hire their own is consultants usually biologists. Mh. Right? And then they'll... You know, it you see it with climate change, and you see it with even water management in California, there's always... It it... When it comes down to it, and and it gets in litigation. There's always, like,

expert witnesses that come on and and each person's got their their point of view and it's usually kind of in line with their client in a lot of ways.

That... Is that is that... Am I like,

do you think I'm, like, over reacting to that or is it an issue or, you know,

what how do you... What what's your take on it?

Well, I think

just being trained as a

as a as a research file. Just... I wanna make sure that anything that

that we're putting out

is is

is gonna be

kinda def defend to the scientific

community, no matter who

it is. And so so maybe that's a that's more of an artifact of of my...

Of, like, my education and my Yeah. Like before Noah,

you know... Because it's, like, you wanna put out a peer reviewed journal, and that peer reviewed journal goes through a pretty rigorous process. Right? And so everything that's in it, need you need to be able to say. This is how I did it. This is the outcome that we get, and this is how you can repeat it yourself,

And so then within the program, we're all kind of,

we're all scientists.

And so we wanna make sure that whoever comes after us, can understand the decisions that we made, why we made them, in the moment and then be able to either...

Repeat it or pivot and and not make the payment mistakes that we did.

That makes sense. So there there may... You know, I was

maybe they're... I'm trying to make a connection that what... Isn't there just perceived to be there, but it's not really.

I'm just worried about the the mercenary biologists...

You're are the mercenary scientist that's out there. Well. Just The mercenary scientist that get, you know, the expert that gets called in for for whatever reason. You know, usually,

usually, not not as...

I don't know. Just to put a counter and muddy the water on on certain issues. I'm I always fall back clients. I mean it's all... Change.

More than one size each story. Right? Yeah. So it's the same in science.

Even though we're dealing with facts and whatnot. There's always... Different ways that you can question things. And the the best that you can do is is

make sure that whatever you're saying is backed up as much as possible and unless somebody wants to do with that. That's okay.

Yeah. As long as you feel like you're evidence speaks for itself.

What I I guess that's also about that evidence.

What's Let's talk about that evidence and the good news that you guys experienced last year.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would love to.

So the program has been,

our

strategy

for,

bringing fish back to the San Joaquin.

Because no spring run existed, right, they're clearly extra or,

gone from the area.

And not just the San joaquin team named them, actually all the san joaquin tread as well.

So spring around only

existed

in in the north. So in in the Sacramento river.

So our,

major strategy was to go get through stock or basically,

baby fish from the north.

Raise them in the south on the southern waters

and then spawn those guys and release their Juvenile mount.

So that's what our conservation Hatch is based on,

speaking fish,

specifically from from feather reverse hatch these dogs

bring run, and we take their access they,

bring them down to fry, raise them on fry water and to adulthood hood and then saw them. And then those juvenile,

we have been releasing

into the lower reaches of the san joaquin team

since to the thousand fourteen.

And

so as you can imagine two thousand fourteen was pretty dry. So when you probably had pretty low

survival.

And then

last year was the first time

that we actually got adult fish to return.

And those adult fish,

as you can imagine, went out in two thousand seventeen on those really big blood flows that we saw. Mh Mh. And survived to adulthood in the ocean and then returned

back to, you know, the river that they responded, so it was a huge,

huge deal for us would not happen. And I think that was

April ninth. I think it was almost exactly a year ago today, and that was got our first fish back.

And it was really, really

exciting for the program, and in a lot of different ways. It was exciting for us biologists to see adult fish,

because that's always exciting for us. But it was also

very,

vin indicating to be able to say,

this this works what we're doing

works in this strategy

to

is successful

and

you know, can these fish will persist in this area. And

and, you know, it didn't end

with that first fish that we caught. We... We ended up being able to

transfer a total of nineteen,

adults

from the lower reaches since the upper reaches because currently,

there isn't,

additional

passage for those adults. So they can't get to the upper reaches the spawning reaches

by themselves

but then at the

last year when they were doing that in Kirk survey, So when they were looking for

the same and neck,

in the fall.

They found this explosion

of of reds out there.

Almost two hundred reds,

is what they found, which is completely amazing because between what was released from hatch is we also released adults from hatch.

And then those nineteen first that we brought up, we only released fifty one females.

And so

we're thinking

that over four hundred or so fish,

we're able to make it up into the upper reaches

on their own, on some flood flows that,

the san release

in, kind of late May through about mid June,

which was just another,

huge proof of concept for us

because

not only did we get adult returning for the first time, but,

those adults were able to make it up

on their own new barriers that we had said were imp for fish,

and and then survive

all summer and then response successfully.

That's pretty cool. I think that's one of the cool coolest things about your job is you kind of see

the immediate, you know, you... The... Your your Roi just kinda, like, swims up the watt and right to your feet. You know what I mean? Like, you can see them. It it was the amazing that's that you coolest. I mean.

I've I've spent many.

Many a day in in a cube and

ebay wondering what the fuck I was doing there and how I'm in.

How my my effort is contributing to the... Do anything, and, you know, I've had sometimes at that particular job. I've had better better job satisfaction mowing along. You know? So that's really cool that you guys are doing that.

Yeah. It's been a pretty big.

It's been a pretty big deal. And and I think

it was a boost kinda that the program who really needed, and and I feel like

everyone who is involved in this program is really ex... Excited and and super energized right now, so it's not just the fish biologist,

but, all of our stakeholders, so the water users in the area, and the folks who live in fry and stuff, everyone is so excited to see the fish

come back and be successful

Yeah. And if you know,

because, of, where we are right now, like,

just kind of in the season. We've also seen,

over ten thousand juvenile.

In the rotary shops, which are in the upper river and rotary screw chapel the fancy way of of sampling for for baby fish and seeing what's up there. And if you think about the the year before this,

we had a total of eight hundred and eighty eight So that's it. Mh. It's just a huge increase

in in the population, and and just goes to show you, you know, if you if you if you build it, they will come.

Like

And you know, it's pretty cool. See what they're supposed to do? Yeah. What's your great here. What's a stripe population on that water like? Is it an... Or are they an issue for you guys or a perceived issue for you guys?

So we now we're not a hundred percent sure

how that's gonna work. So, obviously, the

beneficiary

up there,

had a lot of stripe has current has a lot of stripe in it. You have these mines

that are right off the river,

and there are kind of this weird pond

warm water habitat.

And so the stripe just love it in there. But then you have this really cold,

Eastern air water coming from science dam itself. So the river, like, the south legs. So the middle of the river is pretty cold.

And so as you move farther from the dam, you're gonna get warmer and warmer the water, which is better conditions for stripe

unless better conditions for jews and salmon. Mh.

But a lot of that area hasn't been

you know, has... Is just being

colonized and re wet by the river And so how those dynamics are going to work between predator and pray, we're not a hundred percent sure,

considering how good quality water we get, from of the dam itself.

So we're still trying to figure that out, but we know that their stripe is there,

and there's quite a lot of them.

And that they could be a problem. The stripe that are in these these warmer pools are they land locked.

No.

Quite a few of them are are connected to the river. And so one of the

one of the big projects

of the program is to try to develop a way to...

Be able to cut off those

those gravel pits from the river itself.

But preserve them for the rack fishing community because there there people down there,

love them. So we wanna make sure that they

they

close and enough to the river that they can they can first it

as as great recreational fishing. Yeah. That far and enough in the river that they're not

they're not eating a bunch of our too.

Got it.

So were you guys, you know, looking out this year and obviously this right around the time when they're supposed to be seeing some of these adults,

return back into the system.

We're looking at

sixty percent snow back in in Northern California. And I think, like, fifty percent down in the area that the San Joaquin get this water from or you go what's the,

what what planning and you guys have in place? What are you talking about? Have you seen any associates yet? What's what's the status?

So we haven't seen any fish yet,

but

I think

considering how much

rain and snowfall that we've got in March.

We're still pretty hopeful,

that we will see fish

because that that that

that amount of water and snow and march really help to kind of...

We needed it bad. Yeah. We needed it real bad. And and then these,

pretty mild temperatures that we've had,

we're hoping will help. Keep the the temps down as well, and that will see some fish here in the next couple of weeks.

As they kinda get queued

by warming temperatures to sort of to to move up.

But the rate didn't march really really helps be able to keep the river

to to keep the river running

and

to keep it at a temperature that's suitable for the dole migration.

So our

reservation has spoke

out there right now

with these giant bike shop,

hoping to to catch some adult.

Stop Wanted and be able to move them up into the spawning.

Very cool.

Yeah. I'm

conservative it until temperatures are prohibited.

In the little nervous to locally,

you know, we usually get a lot more water just in March and and so hopefully it they for a a wet month because...

No. It's just...

Usually a a wave of water that's bringing all these and not in or our systems and

it's just kinda it's pretty low. Everything's still pretty low, but, you're right that that last

Mh. Rain rainfall or snow attack and there's snowfall fall and March definitely help

I was just curious about the thoughts on that right. When you said earlier,

you build it they will count, you know, With so much of what you guys were doing is directly impacted on on what the rainfall are gonna be like and over the next, you know, ten years next twenty years.

Yeah. And that's really kind of a an natural part of california system too. It's it's always been pretty, you know,

p and and dry,

different waves and stuff. So the fish the fish is adapted to it. That's one of the reasons that they can hold and the way that they that they do. And in spring around specifically are adapted to it because they have work call yearly

life stage,

meaning that some, a percentage of the of the Juvenile house,

actually don't

migrate in their first year and hold over

in the river

until they're one plus year old

and then,

migrate out

with the with the next spring.

So they've actually adapted ways to handle

our kind of a splash system

in the valley and in the Southern Valley specifically.

Yeah. We

queued.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

Oh, just as the

spring... A lot of the spring run comes

or right here in our backyard. We have a,

View creek that has a a huge run of spring fish and...

And, I'm... Yeah. I'm sure you're aware of them. And they come up in usually, like, February and in March in this in that kind of time frame,

and then continue work way into the colder waters, but I've been wondering the same thing

like, the fish are gonna have to adapt this based on the the warmer waters. But I didn't I don't think I knew about that.

The, like, extra year being added to molten the smoking process, basically it, which is pretty interesting. Like, that's kinda cool.

Yeah. It's one of the things that nice bring

really unique,

and and, well adapted to to these to these areas.

Is that that yea life stage and also the

in their run time all coming up in the spring.

Although, I was gonna say it what's the hopeful for this year is that, we're seeing a lot more juvenile moving around the delta,

and in the,

and in the rivers themselves

since about mid March. So they're they're popping up all over the place and we didn't see them moving around almost at all in February. So we think that they were all pretty hun down

and now that it's a little bit cooler. There's a little bit more rain. There's a little bit more inputs from the rivers, they're all starting to to moves the way that they're supposed to.

So

you know, it it it does feel very dry, but,

the fish are taking a queue that they're getting it's just good.

I think all angles we're listening where you just said that yours plugged up and if the that hasn't been closed in California. They're like, alright. Diapers are gonna be eaten days. We gotta get we gotta get out there. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent. A loss of the little guys are moving around, but what was good is that they were hanging out,

growing before they start moving around, so they're probably pretty big.

Before they're going out this year, which might mean really good things.

I'm in a few years with adults.

Maybe. I mean, it's all speculation Right? But, you, the sizes that we're seeing are pretty big. That's cool. That's what we base. Most of our angry success on in that speculation. So...

And I'm much.

But what... What is it, the,

confluence of effort,

and and,

man I just butcher it. I butcher appreciate it.

Effort and an opportunity?

Is what there you go. Thank you.

Yeah.

Cool. Well, I'm all out of questions How about you. Got

no. Yeah. It's been super informative and been very hopeful just because you... You know, we lack that. Knowledge of that area and the San Joaquin River. So we really appreciate the time you've given us an all your efforts that you're put in into restoration program,

everybody there, obviously

I'm sure there's a number of people that to thank. I don't know if there's been some people you wanna thank or use this time to

mention some names to to stand out to you, and other. It's just all that... I mean, it's everybody at all the agencies. Right at the, the bureau

for everything that they do. Bureau of recommendation. E of our,

station wildlife service,

both their Lo eye office and the folks crew in Sacramento,

and,

California department Fisher wildlife

both them their friends office and their Sacramento office. This it's so many people.

But everybody, you know,

everybody contributes to and it it's a really

special wonderful place to work. I really like it at least. That's pretty cool.

What else? We couldn't do it if we didn't all work together.

Yeah.

Well,

Nick, do you wanna wrap it up for us?

Yeah. I no. I thought again. Thanks for your time, William

cats putting this together, it was super informative and if if you still looks like like what you've heard. Please make make sure to go on to our

whatever platform you use to listen to our show and and rate us and and give us a review. We really appreciate it and and build a feedback and

it helps keep the lights on,

especially you accounts spot for your report,

make you're not a member and you live in California,

go online try the log and and become a member of Cal because they do a lot for fisheries in the and and your community and wanda.

Yep. And also, oh, go ahead, Hillary.

I was just gonna say thank you guys so much for having us or having me and for letting I need to tell a story in the dan joaquin team program.

Anytime. Appreciate it. You know, not a ton of people know that we're down there, and it's always nice to to talk about it is, but especially in these kinda years where we feel a little bit successful.

Very good.

I was gonna I was gonna say, Nick, I got an email from somebody the other day and they're asking how they can help, support the show because they know, like, we're, you know, the the whole Covid things kinda keeping

keeping the budgets pretty tight right now with with

advertising.

And we do have a Patreon account. If you go to our,

Instagram. You can click on the Link tree

link in in our Instagram profile. One of those buttons there as a patreon account and how that works is you basically just pledge a certain amount of money per month.

You put your credit card in, and then it'll charge you, I think. I think our steps are five fifteen and twenty dollars a month. So if you if you guys wanna support the show that way, please do.

You can... You know, it's basically five dollars fifteen or twenty a month, keep the show going.

While we kind of figure out what the, you know, the the advertising situation because, you know, obviously, no one's

really wanted to spend money on advertising right now, which is understandable.

So that's a that's the way you guys can help, get, you know, pay the editor,

keep the show going also.

Anything else, Nick?

You're right.

Hillary you grab that noah credit card and

Expense account. Hillary twenty a month, Hillary.

Okay. Cool. Well, thank you guys. For... Thank you very much, Hillary for coming on the show and and doing what you do to keep you know, keep all of us sport Anglers,

having a good time out there on the water. Appreciate your work and and what you're doing for the habitat.

Yep. Thanks for having me and appreciate it. Alright. You guys. Thanks for listening. We'll be back soon. Sidelines everyone.

Have a good one.

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