Hogan Brown and Kevin "KP" Price

Hot podcasting from Chico California.

This is the Bartlett fly fishing podcast.

Where we discuss North fly fishing, guiding fisheries science and management,

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Here's your host, Hogan brown.

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Alright, everybody. Hey. Welcome back to the barb podcast here from the

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Trigger barbecue queues as well, keeping the meat smoked. So

today, I... If you listen to the last episode, we kinda, and and

we kinda went in a different direction with mister Dominic Dora duran.

But we're bringing back someone pretty official at this point, and

to kinda tell you about my guest.

I was trying to think

when we met,

and

I couldn't

really come up with a year though it was a long time ago. And

to kinda start off of... This is

to introduce the person. This this is a person for my life that really pushed me, and he probably doesn't know and it probably,

I don't know. But

he pushed me at a very

kinda important time in my career to kinda push the envelope because he was pushing the damn envelope so hard. So

I wanna welcome one of my dear friends, someone that I look up to and kinda and just always incredibly blown away with what they do,

mister Kevin Price lovingly known as K.

So welcome to Barb Podcast k.

Welcome. Yeah. Thanks, man. Nice to be here. Be swift, and,

yeah. I dude do I sound official. Feel official.

You do. Man. Have you been on a podcast before?

Never. Yeah. It's never, man. This is the first... This is the first toe in the water so to speak. So

yeah. I'm looking forward to it, And I think we'll just,

go over the history and

I'm ready to

talk about whatever.

Yeah. Well

gonna to be here. Yeah. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. It's basically like a glorified phone conversation. So absolutely. Hey. Dude I could talk all day. You if you know me or you're my wife dude did you know that I'll run my mouth all day long.

So when...

When did you move to Chico?

Well,

I'm trying to put a date on that to too you, man, But I think the way that it happened for me was

it was kind of a slow

progression to getting down there. When I first came down there,

It must have been around two thousand

two. Yeah. You know, That's what I was thinking. I I was... That's as I was driving over here. I... I was I was... That's the number I said on.

Chad.

And just to be clear, dude real quick. I'm gonna try to keep this as clean as possible because my kids are gonna wanna listen to this thing, and I Really. They were already

me about this. But Alright I dude. I'll hey. That's a two part program there because I use... I usually get the r rating, like, I mean, we're three minutes in. So

I'll try my best too for your kids ears.

But I... Around two thousand two,

what I had going on was I was living in South Lake Tahoe,

and,

I was really getting into the ford to fly fishing. I'd taken it on a few years earlier, and and

I was recovering from a shoulder surgery that I had had.

And I was on disability.

And

and so

I was living up there, and I was, like,

I was getting a decent amount of money every month,

disability. And I was like, man,

it's gonna be winter here. I'm just sitting here. So I decided that I wanted to move somewhere, and I wanted go somewhere and hang out where I could fish all day every day.

And so

so I,

I packed up and

I went on a little drive and went fishing, and I drove down, and that was the first time I'd been to Chico before, but That was the first time I went down there and, like, kinda fish the fisheries in the area, a lot

on that trip. I slept in the back of my... I used to have a ford runner.

And,

I walked into the Chico flash shop for the first time and met those dudes.

And I was, like, dude, I wanna come down here and live.

And so

I had terrible credit

no. Like, next to no money and I was on... You know, I was on disability. So I was, like, starting to at least have enough money to survive month to month, but I got my sister a cosign sign for me, and I'm moved into a little place over

off the last and drive, a little apartment complex

that was... I don't know what it was, six or seven hundred dollars a month,

and I lived there,

and

started to meet

everybody in that area,

that was associated with fly fishing and and kind of learned the rich history of the Chico, you know, the Chico

area. And, from a fly fishing standpoint, you know, not just the college and the party. So I had a girl I had a girlfriend growing up

in high school

that

went to Chico state,

and she was actually in a fisheries program

that we had in our high school in Petal.

I went to Casa of Grande high school in Petal. But we actually had a steel head

ladder there. Oh, wow. Or

Adobe Creek, and she and Turn her father worked on that with

with the

one of the teachers there that did, like, the wildlife

outdoor stuff. And so she was, like, involved in that stuff as a year at an early age, and

and

kinda introduced me back into the sport of fishing, You know, Like, I was hanging out there.

In Chico or in a in,

Petal and then going and fishing it, like, the Russian river and stuff on the weekend with my friends, but,

they get back to Chico, I did have a little history there. So that was easy move for me to get back in there. Yeah. And

Ended dude I started, like, going into the fly shop, the Chico fly shop every day

and hanging out with Nick and Larry

and John Brian and

press towel was still around at that time and just learning the history of it. And, man, I was just in spat. I was there, like, every day

for a while, just like, hanging out,

drinking coffee with doyle

or doing whatever.

Watching them type wise, picking their brain, trying to get them to to, you know, teach me as much as I could.

And it was somewhere around then

that

I met you, and I don't know if it was going into fish first two, when you were still working in there? Dude, I was, like, I was literally trying to remember, and

I had... I I just... There's... There's those years where was just, like, K here. Like it appeared. Like, you appeared, like a migrant and just I couldn't tell you how we met, but once we met, it was all on. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and

And the one time that I do

remember actually, one of the, I I kind of knew who you were, but one of the early times that I did need. I don't know if you remember this or not, but

I was with Nick

We Butte creek, we rolled up on you and

and Ryan, Johnston

on Butte Creek, and you guys were walking out, kind... I I don't know about a half mile below the covered bridge. Yeah. And you guys were up there efficient fishing. And we pulled over and we chatted for a minute and weird, you know, weird Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. We're. You know, I was... I just remember I was looking at your rig. I was like, dude. What's this guy got? You know,

big old class. Big old plastic beads.

A couple of beads.

You know. Nothing. Yeah. I there my own eggs is it was cool there and not... But I remember that and talking a little bit, and I was like, oh, that's hogan. Because at that time,

you had some flies out

and I and I and I I I believe I wild had already gotten kinda rolling.

And and you had some flies, and I remember seeing them

in I used to always see your flies on the

the... What's hot and what's not on that... On the fish first report. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah Okay. As I'm curious Probably should look in the exact thing.

Totally Probably still the same copy paste.

Just shameless

promoting it, writing my...

Promoting it and writing about my own flies.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. Hey. You know what, man.

It is what it is. Like, it I mean, those

there is not a lot of information out there for

for when you're getting started life. At least back then there wasn't Internet wasn't nearly what it is now. No.

Online stuff. You don't got a gazillion

Youtubers Yeah. You know that that just comp out content.

I mean, back then when and and you and you know this, like, when we first...

When I first came on to idle wild, Like, that's what it was all about was trying to

increase the flow

of what people were seeing.

Yeah. Yeah. And for those that don't know, me

mean and k both our first

big fly tying contracts. That we have were with a, a company called Ida wild, which I'm sure we'll get into. But

we both... I I don't even know. I I always assumed you and me signed our contracts like, really close to the same time, but maybe we didn't. I don't know. Yeah. I think you were on pretty good with before then, but

I just remembered

and not to get off track, but just... I just remember that

that's where I I saw your name before I actually saw

you. Yes. And then, you know, through working with Jay and doing all all the

the His shows and the fishing shows together with him, you know, I remember even hearing about you before from some of the other reps

that were working with Caught or whatever they were like, oh, man, We're, you know, we're Hogan.

There's that. You know, Because you you had been helping him before I came along and... Yeah. And

And just... Yeah. And... And and so...

I was probably, like, here here comes a guy that'll put all the fucking rods together

the last for sure for sure.

And my whole connect... And my whole connection to a lot of that stuff and getting going

was,

was Mike weird. Yeah. I mean, that guy,

we... I mean, that goes back to the whole South Lake thing, you know. Yeah. When I moved to Chico,

I was I was down there, and I was fishing every day. And and I had kind of already met my in South Lake,

and

and he was kind of showing me and my other buddy Johnny pears around a bit.

And we were going down and fishing the Jackson area where he grew up. Yeah. The Mc. All the... All that stuff out there, was eye opening, you know. And the dude just,

like, live and breathe fishing. Yeah. And

And

so I learned a lot from him, and he

introduced me to Jay.

Okay. We what you showed together. Gotcha. And and that sort of led down that path to,

So it was kind of two things happening and at once it was me being around the Chico area and then also,

it kind of hanging out with Mike a bit and go into shows

and and meeting j.

Yeah.

And that was when you and me really started hanging out was when we were... Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, once once it it escalated pretty quick, like, I

I've been doing construction quite a bit, and I knew I wanted to get out of that, Yeah. And

and I sort of

took a stab at this fly fishing stuff. I remember asking Jay, like, hey, You know, like, what

what's out there dude? Like, can you know, where can I get a job? Like, what can I do? Like, can I help you? What can. What's available? You know? I mean, it was Slim picking. Like, there was there wasn't much to go on. You know? It was like, oh, no. Is you you it's really hard to build yourself up into

that world. You know? I mean, it's not

it's not easy, and

there wasn't a there was a lot of more closed doors than there were open doors

in the beginning,

because it's a it's a small sport, you know? I remember of keep telling me the you're... You know, the the sports about the size of the model train industry. And that was just like a punch in the gut. Oh, absolutely.

Right. I was here

And how many people do you know make a living in the model train industry?

Yeah. Exactly. You want I don't.

You know. Yeah. And I mean, if that was... In... So listening to some of that and watching, you know, I was, like dude, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to pull this off. And and even after I kind of got going in it a bit,

it was still,

like, really hard.

To to make it to make it work. And, like, I

I went hungry a lot. I, you know, I did have insurance for the longest time.

I kinda of just wrote it out on belief, you know, and just and just will

that this was what I was gonna do. Yeah.

And so that was that was it wasn't easy, ma'am, but that was

those were the early days of it, and that was when I first started hanging out with you and and things did progress pretty quick after that once

once I got into guiding. Yeah. And you started. I mean, you and me, we were... There was a couple of us living in Chico guiding at that time.

You. You me, Ryan.

Nick was doing a little guy,

but, like, yeah. I mean, the guys doing the days were You me and Ryan. And

sure.

I I remember you were one of the guys,

at that time that instantaneously, you were doing different things.

You know? You you

you were the guy that I would see down on the low floats on the Sack. You know what I mean? Doing the stuff that, like,

no one else did.

And I yeah.

You know? And I think real quickly you and me too, we bonded over like, there's not many people

that I run to run into in life. There is passionate about

the sport and not just the sport, but like,

finding how far you can take the sport. You know what I mean? Like,

you know? Absolutely? A lot of people you run into, I run into in my life. It's like, they really like to fish.

But.

You know, if you're like, hey, have you ever done this? Have you done that, You already tried that? It's... The answer is always no. It's like, no. I go to the same two spots

every time I fish. Whereas, like

me and you when we connected it was, like,

oh, this is a kindred spirit.

This guy is out here. I mean, I remember...

I don't even know where it is, because I never went there, but there was that creek that she used to

drag the boat up in, and there's that great idol wild photo where you look like fuck earth... Excuse me. For your kids. Swamp thing.

Swamp thing. Yeah. Coming out of this just mu.

You know? Yeah.

Weird that was

that was

that was just finding a lot of those back waters of the Sacramento

river, and the Creek the Creek kind of

east of Chico,

and that really got going look more, like, just looking for bath. Like, I was... Yeah.

I...

I've always had a hard time

doing anything

repetitive.

Yeah.

Like, what? Like, whether it's time flies

or taking somebody down the river

or even fishing all day,

Have a hard time to just repeat things over and over.

I like new experiences, and I like to

get some variety when I'm out there, and I'm not scared to go out and get blank doing it. Yeah. And

it's not a... It's not so much about the fish for me. It's about the experience. And

no my... And I'm like that with a lot of things that I do. I just...

I'm real... I... I like to go different places.

I get caught and going the same areas. I like having nobody around. I think that that's one thing. Yeah. That resonates with me. And that's why when I got into guiding, and I got into doing the Sack,

you know,

the person that introduced me to the low lower stack on that low flow section was slim. Yeah. Todd fill. Yeah. And, you know, he had he took me under his wearing the wing and really mentored me,

to

try different things and move around and not think, like,

everybody else was thinking out there at the time. And I kinda ran with that. In some days, I ran

so good with that that it pan out. In other days, I ran so hard with that that it ended up with people having one fish in the boat. Totally, it was it was

you know, it was a different beneficiary down there, but

I always... I... What people would always say when I would pull them out from down there was, like, I've never been down here before. I've been fishing the sack for years and... I've been down here before and. Yep. And

and they usually came back. It was funny because some of the some of the guy trips that I went on there. I was like, man, this guy never coming back. Right? I am never seen this guy.

Dude they would call back and come back, and I was be... I would just be blown away, and I think that what it should over time was that I really like to take people out that we're into the experience of going no matter what it was. Yeah. And

and the challenge of it, you know, too. And I think that a lot of them, even if we didn't catch a pile of fish, which some people say they don't have a problem with and then an hour in. They're already complaining it. Totally. You know, It's right,

some of those people

would be...

They they really enjoyed...

Just seeing something different, you know, doing something different, you know, yank the barber off, making them high stick, whatever. You know It's like, now they call it European and Nip. Like back

call it high stick. And right? You just like indicator off and put your bugs down the screen. It's like, now they got, like, words for it and rod for it and it's a total different game. I... I mean, I guess it's a marketing deal, but it's, like,

really, it's just high

ignition, Yeah. You know? And and that was something that I learned from the guys at the Chico shot me. And they were really

big on just, like, kick the bob off, man, like, just

I stick that thing through there and go for the grab. Like, you'll feel them pick it up. You know, Yeah. And learning how to learning how to fish is fish in front of you instead of getting way out away from yourself all the time. Yeah. And just do a different... Do a different stuff. You could hang it, you know, dang it, you know, yeah back in, like, you you have a lot more options when you know, got this big, you know, ball on the end of your of your leader

kind of just imp your drip. You know? Yeah. No. It's really true. You... I mean, you're right.

Yeah. And so those guys really introduced me to that in the beginning and and I I ran with that, and, and I would make people do it. I mean, to know and sometimes, you know. And

and I learned that there was a time and a place for it and...

And a lot of people, you know, to this day, will tell you you can't catch fish out there like that, but you absolutely can. Sometimes, that's the best way to catch them. Yeah. On some of those, you know, the lower stack,

I couldn't think it a place

that I would rather fish. I mean, that is to me

the ultimate

fisheries,

and I've been a lot of places,

Montana,

Idaho,

Colorado,

Nevada,

Oregon,

Washington,

you know, New Zealand,

is this so many places that are big trout places.

Yeah. And if I could only fish one place,

that would be the place that I would settle down,

not even... I would... You would even have to ask me twice, I would... You would have the answer in a second.

Yeah.

Just because of the diversity yet. I was just gonna explain what it represents as a beneficiary and as a whole

you know? And and just from trout fishing as as well.

It's just

it's an amazing trout beneficiary. I mean,

so many fish, so many big fish and,

you know, hard fighting fish,

and,

you know, they can it can be on. It can be off. You're never gonna pull, you know, one of these mutants out of there that you see on some of these other rivers where to plan them in there. Yeah. But

you'll see some mutant sized fish coming out of there from time to time that when you catch one you're like dude.

I'm been

wanting to catch a fish like that. They make you work. It's like, these five years, ten years, whatever it takes,

when you finally get one of those big ones out of there, do you feel like you earned it, and Yeah. And there's a a lot of...

There's a lot of reward that comes with that. And

and, yeah. And it just, you know, and be in front of the state, growing up in California my whole life. I'm

I'm, you know,

really

a big fan of day. Like, I really. I I love I love this place, and it it's worth

I I always want to fish

if I can. I I long to go other places and then I get there and I'm always like,

you and why I leave alec. And know, like, I just wanna I just wanna come back and, you know, you see you get you get...

You see photos and you see stuff, and you're like, you don't wanna go fish that. And it's cool. Yeah. But

there's so much to fish here in this state that I feel like

I just... I I wanna spend more time

you know,

dedicating

my time an in this state because I still haven't done. Oh, a lot here. There's so much that I still haven't finished. So... Absolutely. I mean, how much... I mean,

It's... There's so much within the borders of California

that I have not done that there's absolutely no reason to go anywhere else.

You know what I mean? Absolutely.

Absolutely. I agree and that and everything went here.

If right from stripe, Yep the sheet... I mean, huge large mouth bass,

t, cut through, you know, cut through a trout, brown trout, Rainbow trout,

Right trout,

you know,

just everything. Everything is here carp. I mean, some of the biggest carp. I mean, you look at the Sacramento river in the Delta. It's like even just recent, it it doesn't seem like until, like, the last five or six years that people even realize that there were carpet in there.

I mean, it's... Now there... Now it's I just like, dude. I can go there... You go to the delta and catch car from a lifetime. If that's what you wanna do turn around and catch the back of the lifetime. Totally. You know? And and then turn around and catch the stripe over a lifetime.

You know, there's just like, you couldn't you couldn't shape a better

fisheries

than the sacramento river drainage, and all the rivers that flow into it. Those fish have the potential to go

up to so many good spots. So many good,

you know, different river systems

and they do. And so you never know those lower fisheries, like, you never know what you're gonna catch down there. No. You know? And I've seen guys

you know,

fishing for trout and hooks stripe or,

you know, or fishing for trout, catch steel head, salmon, Yeah. You know, hook

hook catch. I mean, we catch stripe or when when we're Stripe... Girl, I'm guiding for stripe. I mean, we catch Salmon steel head. We catch everything, man. It's...

Yeah. I mean, and that's what's cool about it. It's kind of like being in the.

Yeah. Oh,

You don't know

because because it's...

And those fish can be anywhere in there. They literally will swim up. I mean, you got vast right below pos grounds in the frog water. Oh, absolutely. Lagoon over there, you know? And then the stripe have migrated up there. I mean, there's you know, There's all these other fish women around small mouth. Yes.

One of one of probably the forgotten species of the lower Sacramento.

Really you know. I big ones. Yeah. I I would say that. I mean, that is not one,

you know, they're...

I mean, me and the boys were out this spring wack them. I mean, they're great, but it's... It is probably one of the least fish four species of fish in that river, I would say.

You know? Yeah. I mean, they're not... It's not... They're hard to find. Yeah. They they frequent. They frequent those creek mouths and they kind of stay around, and I won't throw the creek names down. Yeah. But they...

They they frequent those areas at certain times a year, and it's, like, a hundred yard or two hundred yard stretch. You just whack them And when you get outside of that and then you're not catching them again. Well, so weird to me. And you... You... They could be there for them, you know. I know about... I know we're... You know, we're probably talking about a lot of the same places. And it's like, they're there for a month and a half and then they're gone. Yeah. And it's like... And it's like, where do they go? Exactly. Where do they go?

Yeah. I mean, you can go out and fish the... The

ideal spot for small amounts there and not catch them. And, I mean, I've seen some big ones come out of there. I was eating lunch with a client Lin

down on that big bluff

kinda down below,

to shoot bridge right there. Yeah. Yeah Big. Got huge left down there and there's all those snags on the inside. Yep. And,

you know, we're we're sitting there ian Lunch. Said this dude rolled up in, you know, a tin can? Totally.

Cautious spinner bait over there and whack, like a five pounder. I mean, like, a legitimate.

I mean, he even he was just like, it's like a five pound small amount. And it was. I mean, it was a big, like, twenty inch plus small mouth. Yeah.

And sick. And that was just like, in.

So, like, you know, it's was, like, a week later. I'm coming down the river with one of my other

buddies that I used to fish with a lot, and, you know, we're chuck gear over there.

I was like, dude hit that snag right there. Just a big mama mouth. But I never caught nothing out of there pike min. Yeah. Totally that about it, man.

So I didn't get any of those other that those big small mouth I was looking for.

Yeah. So on the bass, I I look back and you and...

I don't know. Maybe I don't know how you see it, but

I see you and me right around the same time really getting into bass fishing. And really starting to be, like,

that is what lit

that... I guess kinda lit the flame. You know what I mean Like? Sure we we... I think there a period there were both you and me kinda like, realize that, like,

Oh, we're both kinda doing this together. Like, this is Yeah. Like, you know, we both kinda... I don't know if we got sick of trout fishing or

what, but it was...

We both kinda followed that

that path.

And it definitely led us in two completely different places. But

how did the bass... How did bass fishing kinda come into play and how did that? Because

many people, I mean, you you are probably one of the most tight lit people around,

though you you do talk a lot. I mean, let's be clear.

But like...

I mean, you you you still to the day designed some of the most innovative bass flies I've ever seen in my life.

And

like, that is your love,

what it seems like, You know, but, how did that start in Chico? How did that how did that start coming to be?

Well, I think a lot of it just had to do with

what was there. And like you said, I mean, you know, with the steel head in the trout fishing and somewhere in that early two thousand, it got really busy there.

They got extremely busy

And

you know,

fishing places like the feather and stuff you'd have to get up in the middle of the night,

yeah, and

fly down there and sleep on the river, you know, and you'd get out there and it'd be pitch dark and you'd be walking through the woods and you'd look and there'd be someone standing in a hole, you know? Yeah. And you're were like, dude, Where did you would you sleep here?

And so it was, like, super competitive,

and

I just kind of got tired of it, and I think for me, it started...

I mean, I grew up

fast fishing with my grandfather

in North Carolina.

Gotcha. And every summer,

from the age I was ten on, my mom would stick me on an eastern airplane flight

with people that... I mean, back then, they had a smoking section, you know.

And I was somewhere in the middle

And here I am ten years old flying cross country by myself

to go stay with my grandparents officer.

Sucking out of pack of Mar bros on. Their god.

I we, I'd fly to Atlanta. I'd be sitting in the airport for a few hours in the morning, and then I would

Charlotte for one of these other places,

my grandfather would pick me up.

And he was a southern Baptist

preacher.

Oh, god. And we would just we would just

cruise around

all summer long. He just he was like,

he was like a dad to me, really, You know. And,

we would cruise around and...

All he likes to do besides preaching out five was fish.

It really bad

southern food. You know that was it. Like... Yeah.

That's what he did and like, my only requirement was I had to go to church on Sunday and Wednesday,

and the rest of the week, we fished pretty much day in day out.

And he had a little boat. The thing didn't even go forward. It only went. It only went reverse. Kind sometimes I didn't even work. Your pad

and

they're

package.

There was none of that. Yeah. You know? And... But we bath it. And that's what I grew up doing.

And I I just in brim,

you know? It was, like, usually some rooster tails

notes soft plastics back in.

None of that stuff. We weren't allowed to use any of that. It was, like, rooster tail and quarter ounce, half ounce,

three eighths,

multiple colors.

Just

real. Just rip.

Tail and a

did just Z toe thirty three and wing it did. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I remember I came out, and I had a I had a ugly stick in a shimano, like a spinning, like, a quick fire spinning reel.

And

and he was, like, what is that? You know?

He was like, a fit. You know, he's like, oh, that's... He would say that's no count. I ain't no count.

You know?

It basically meant it was worthless.

And

and he would hand me one of his nineties Dev codes that he had. I mean, he had a garage full of them.

They lasted about a week.

Dude the thirty three classic on there in, and you could z those things. You could throw, like, the lightest... They never... Never lash, no kind of

line thin nothing. You know? Yeah. And

and we would go out and fish all these ponds and

drive around the state,

you know, just cruising them. And

and those are, like, some of the fond memories in my life. Like, I looked back on what got me the about fishing, and that was definitely

what got me into it. And

so

when I I even, like a lot of people probably... I mean, I don't know, maybe not a lot of people. But for me,

I was really inefficient young. And then as I got into high school area, you know, I got into other things. Ride my skateboard, more

girls.

Yeah.

You know, typical stuff. I kinda got away from it.

And then,

and then,

like, when I was in, I late peeing,

early... Like, probably, like, nineteen

twenty, I wanna say? Yeah.

I started to get back into it again. And that's when I sort of took on, you know, just

getting back into gear fishing, and then that kind of evolved into into fly fishing a bit. But,

when things got busy on in the fly fishing side,

I remember looking at these all these ponds and stuff that we're

totally baking.

Yeah.

Especially like out, like, the, you know, like, down off the feather. Oh, yeah. I remember seeing all that water in and

and talking

to, like, it in in particular,

and him say, oh, man, I got got huge bath in there, you know, and I was like,

oh, that's... I started to gravitate towards that. And I was like, dude, I could fish all this water that nobody's even going near. And this is, like... I mean, I remember when this was happening. I mean, this is, like, two thousand

seven two thousand

five even. Like,

bass fishing fly fishing was not cool back then. Like, that was Yeah. This was not the cool thing to do. Because I I was there.

This was... Yeah. There there been no movies made about bass fishing with a fly around. This time. Yeah. No. I think it was still associated with, like, you know, this

just like a lot of things in fly fishing. There's

sides.

Right? Yeah. There's

people side on different things. They're...

You see it a lot. You see it a lot with stay fishing.

You see it a lot with guys that are anti n fishing,

you know, whatever. Really. Like, they're... There's big divide within the ford itself where guys are like, I don't do that. I can't do that. And that's fine. You know? Yeah. To eats their to eats their own, you know, I guess. But

it really hinder the the sport overall

because as a as somebody that's getting into it, it doesn't even have to be a kid. But as as a... Any person getting into it,

certain things are met with

with a bit of a frown and some resistance. Right? Yeah.

And

and you're kind of like, well, fishing fishing, you know? Well, I it's fun to you. It's fun.

Shit you know what I mean, Like...

Even think that.

I I think

I think a lot of times,

people are just...

Their their eyes aren't open

enough to to what the sport really is. Yeah. And that's about the experience. You know? Yeah. It's not... I mean, that's the biggest thing I've learned from An in general

is just...

I'm not... I realized somewhere on along the lines that I'm not. I'm not fishing for fish. I'm fishing for experience.

Oh.

And what it brings to me.

And sometimes I just wanna be able to look around and not see anybody.

To

and just take it in, like, what it what it is that I'm actually able to do

and

enjoy a little bit of just the outdoors.

And and not so much getting caught up in because I've been there too, you know, or it's, like,

the tree or what I'm fishing for, whatever it is, Like,

you can get... You can go down that rabbit hole pretty fast. And...

Oh, yeah. And I'm not... I'm not trying to say there's any right or wrong in any of it. I think

I think that people

are gonna do what they wanna do. And and Fishing

Fishing is, like, any other thing that you do in life.

It's a progression.

Hey. You're gonna progress at different times, and you're gonna look back on what you do

and say, oh, man. I used to do it this right now. I never do it that way Or, you know, I used to see it this way. And now I don't see it that way, Pete can grow.

Absolutely. And. And that's part of it, and I and I feel like,

for me at that time when I got into into doing more of the best thing,

I felt like that's the area that I wanted to grow.

And and I saw that people weren't doing much of it,

and I really wanted to chase after it, and I and I had a fair amount of knowledge of this fast in general, which you, you know.

I I just kind of rolled into

to the fly fishing thing, and and the way that I wanted to see things and maybe that wasn't for everybody. I mean, it, you know,

whether it was my flies or my velocity on it on what I was doing or how I like the fish or...

Because I started getting... What how it started happening is I started getting a lot of people hitting me up

about stuff. Yeah. And asking me questions

about, you know, kindness

or

fishing here, fishing there and

and sometimes they would hit me back and...

Work.

And

Mean there's variance. You know. Like,

the what I do is not... You could tell somebody how to do something it's still not gonna

you may not do it exact. You know? Totally. And

and and and I think back to time and flies some of the flies I hide that were. Just...

They were different

in their own way,

and

Yeah. I mean, I was always, like,

trimming

trimming up and

just, like, counting them, like a like a plug. You know, I'm taken it out there, and if it did float. Right, I would take I'll, cut some something here, cut something there. Yes. Yeah. And so so trying to teach somebody how to do some of that stuff or tell them how to do it. It's like, there's

there's a bit of a curve there. And so not everything's is gonna work the same. And

and so

I I

I always

I always in the back.

Online wanted to tell people that, Like, hey, you know, everybody's different.

Sometimes you gotta improvise out there and

you gotta, you know, maybe you didn't tie it right. Right. I don't I don't know. You know, Like, there's there's certain things that I do that may not work for you. You know? Oh, yeah. I was throwing the ten I was throwing a ten weight fly rod for batch, and most people were throwing like I said or an eight, you know? And like, why do... Yeah. Why do you need this giant rod? You know? And I was like, well, it's to push the fly. The fly is big. You know Yeah Yeah.

You you need something to to throw something that size. You can't just pick up

whatever you want and just make this thing work. Like, yeah.

Well, can I throw it on eight wait?

Sure you can throw it on an eight wait.

But is... Are you gonna be able to throw it at Far, probably not. You know, Are you gonna be able to pull... Are you gonna be able to pull a good one from the weed? Definitely not. Yeah.

You know. And but I I really

I really took on to the bass,

the bass phishing thing,

really just as a a means to get away from people. Yeah, man. And that... That's funny to say that because I don't think we've ever had that conversation, but that's exactly what attracted me about it. You know what I mean? It's like, that... It was the thing at that time

where you could go

and you're, like, I know no one's been here.

You know what I mean? Yeah. There's no one here

and I know these fish haven't seen a hundred and fifty fox poop

today. You know. So

you... So

from from Chico.

You landed

you are now down in San Louis.

What what what was the next big jump? Because it kinda leads us into one of the big topics I wanted to talk about. So you

You left Chico and what? Two thousand

eight. I was trying to think back.

It was it was actually right around two thousand

and

twelve.

Okay. I wanna say. Okay. Two thousand twelve.

That makes me feel done. That makes me feel. My son was born in two two thousand thirteenth. Out... Yeah. From Chico,

Well, I would had been working at this first for... I I was there for what? Seven years or something? Six years, seven years. Yeah. And I transitioned to the fly shop and ready. Yes. And then I was there, I don't know, about four or five months.

And I was having a long distance

relationship with

my now wife who lives here, and we live in a royal grande,

which is just a little bit south of His beach, San Louis area. Okay. And

and she got pregnant.

And

was, like, hey, Look, you know? I'm not moving up there, because I had a house in chico. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And she was, like, I'm not moving there.

You can come down here

and find something to do.

And here I was, you know, I'd made this big transition to the flash shop and ready, and I was, like, dude

thinking to myself, like, what am I gonna do down there? You know?

There is, like, nothing for me down there.

Remember just see a fly fishing void. You know what I mean? Like? It's it's Smack dab in the middle of the state Yeah. It's right where there... It's right where there's, like, no water,

you know, We're kind of in the... This is, like, when the drought happens, this is, like where happens You know. So this is, like the, you know, so these these lake,

feel it.

Water in the state.

They're always in the water here, but anyways, I ended up coming down here,

and

I landed,

had a place called Taco warehouse.

Yeah. And

I took a job there.

At the time that was just

what they had for me. You know, I mean, it was kind of like, starting over

I mean, I went from making really good money and and being able to guide whenever I want

back to essentially making, like minimum wage.

But and

to give some context,

tackle warehouses, like, I mean,

to I always tell people they're the largest online retailer of High end ba gear

in the country. Like they are. Absolutely

Like, they are. Absolutely. I mean, their sponsoring in the tours. Right? Like,

for sure. Yeah. They I do. Like, this year, they're doing the...

It's the Fl w

pack warehouse circuit. Yeah. Like... So then not... It didn't just get a job at, like, the local, like, bait shop.

No. No. And, you know, back then, I mean, it was just it was just a reality check for me. You know, like,

it wasn't it wasn't... I mean, at the time, like,

I remember telling them, like, hey. I'll do anything that I have to to get my foot in the door. And dude I've never... I've never made money

a reason for me to do anything or not doing anything. Absolutely. I work

I work the same,

hey for a dollar as I do for a hundred dollars. Like, I feel like

hard work is just hard work. It is what it is. Like, I'm not

I'm not somebody that

you're ever going to tell

me to do a job if I work for you, and I tell you that's not my job. Yeah. You know what I mean If you tell me to go sweep sweep the parking lot. I'm out there. If you tell me to go inside and little my thumbs. I'm in there. Like.

It just... It is what it is,

for me as far as going to work every day. And

and the and the reason that I've... The only reason that I bring that up, like, where I went back to you because for me, it was it was hard to take that. And I remember talking to people about it talking to my friends about talking to my lady about it. Yeah. And being in my, this is this is hard. You know, but

I I told them I would do this. I want to do this I want him to try to be happy down here. I wanna try to make this work.

And so I just stuck my head down and started

started doing it. And

and and it really pan out for me. In that place

at the time, when I came down here, I remember talking to John Sherman because he helped me get the job there. Yeah. And

and and gave a a good word for me.

As did everybody else that they had contacted as far as I know. Yeah.

And

and so

it it... But it was a... I wasn't aware

how big it was or how big it was getting.

Until I actually came in, and I started taking orders on the phone. That's where I... I... That's where I started out was a customer service. Yeah. So I was basically, you know, doing order follow ups and and talking to people on the phone and placing orders and

And,

a different clientele tell great people,

from all over the country,

international, every

some of the people that I really missed talking on the phone

customers that I

been out it You know. Yeah. And,

a place, like, my first, like, thousand dollar soft plastic worm order that I realized that

what I was... Where I was. You know, I was like, whoa.

This dude just bought a thousand dollars in rubber worm you know or what... I was just slow I couldn't believe the volume

that was going through there, you know? Because, I mean, do there were case that I worked the shop and Chico

were a food pool.

I...

And it was, like, at least somebody came in. There were days. It people didn't even move with

Yeah. How many how many How many Sundays did you work where it was, like, no one came in?

We're, like, no people for somebody?

In by, like, two bags is, like, you know, Hack.

Yeah. The know, totally. So so to go from that to kinda the scenes the the volume

going out that tackle store,

you know, this tackle number

was just... Was this mind boggling. I I'd never seen anything like it, You know, and

and it and it progressed, and

and I slowly, you know, worked up the ladder, and

and got to where I'm at now,

which is a a very comfortable position there that I really enjoy doing and that's just buying tackle.

Yeah. So,

what is your official title? I always tell people you know, my buddy K is one of the buyers.

Like... Yeah. That's my official title. I'm a buyer. I'm just a the just one of the regular buyers there,

and we have a by manager we have a senior buyer.

But and we have, you know,

I guess,

five

five other, you know, just guys just buy. Yeah. So you basically look at all the new spinning tackle for Bass and be, like, this is cool. Let's put this on the website. Basically. Right? Yeah. I mean, we look at stuff coming in. We search around for stuff that guys are doing. I mean, we deal with people from

in their garage to big companies that you see every day. So

there's really no criteria

for what it is that we buy other than that it's something that we feel like is useful to the to people that wanna buy back stuff. And that is where

that is where we side is, you know, it's a vast

tackled driven

retailer. Yeah. I mean, they're they're... If you wanna find

stuff the bath fish with,

that is that is a place to go and

and that that's the

that's the criteria for getting in there is, like, you know, that's that we feel like is

going to

be up that people that bass fish want, you know,

Yeah. You don't get involved in a whole lot of other.

Other

up there that, you know, may may not necessarily resonate. These guys are guys that we deal with a hardcore fisherman really tournament,

minded

something.

And tournament attrition is, like, a whole another beast, you know, Guys out there. It's, like...

Well, it's kinda... Yeah. You kinda hit on something that I I I wanna...

Like, you know, there is this misconception that fly fishing is really expensive.

And Mh.

I always tell people. I'm, like,

you have no clue how expensive

fishing can be. You know? And

and I'm always reminded of this, You know, it's like, I I spent a ton of time on the lakes up here, Or S, you know,

And and I back my, you know, legitimate, like, sixty, seventy thousand dollar boat down the boat ramp.

And it looks very

pedestrian.

Against

the bad ass twenty one foot ranger

that I know costs

a hundred and twenty thousand dollars

and got another hundred k and tackle sitting in it. So it's like,

this idea that fly fishing is the expensive fishing. You know, when you're talking about dudes buying a thousand dollars worth of rubber worms

is

it's just a it's a misconception. It's just not true.

Do you know what I'm saying? That, like,

I tell people all the time. Like, yeah. Your fly rods expensive. But look at that bass boat. They have six

rods or even more

that Yeah. Two three of those fly rods.

You know what I mean?

And I would agree, man. It's a whole another beast. Like, you'd... When you get into it, there's a lot to get into, And, like you and the rods are only part of it. You know? Yeah.

The rods are... And that's the thing is I used to wonder... I used to wonder a lot of things about fast fishing and

these got... That I work with have really

Don't me why things are the way that they are, you know?

And with rods in particular, is like, some guys have a rod just to throw one thing.

It just throws it. Right? That's it. I mean, it's

it's like, And when you say one never do that. You would never do that. That's why people are like, what's the broad that I wanna get if I wanna fly, but just, like, five

you can do being and you can throw some streamers. It's kind of black the all around Rod.

It's really hard to find like that.

I can't...

I had some general conventional knowledge, but nothing like what I know now. Nothing

near what I... You know, these guys have taught me, they've really

shown me so much. And and some of that, I've had to learn on my own. It's... I I... When I first came down here, I was still

fly fishing quite a bit. Yeah. And it took and it took me a couple years

before I kinda of put the fly rod down and sort of picked up the gear and and really fell in love with it. I mean, it it happened pretty quick.

And

and I learned a lot

in the first couple years, just walking the... Like, I always did

and chuck different stuff around, you know, Yeah. But I went through all the... I went through all the ups and downs that

would just like I did in fly fishing, Nina know.

Yeah.

Questions

to the... And those guys would tell me stuff, and I would watch

the blogs at the have and

and kind of, you know, try to school myself on what it was that I needed to do because there is so much

that you need to learn

that

but I... If for me, like, I didn't know a lot of things. You know? I didn't know a lot about it.

Now, spinning rod stuff is, like,

pretty basic.

To pick it up, there are some things that I didn't know that I definitely learned along the way. But when it comes to bay catcher and nile is... I mean, I always challenged people with this. Now that I have kids that I've actually caught

how to do both

fly fishing and gear,

day casting by far

kathy to do. I mean, it... I would rather

go out and try to put a client on fish all day long

fraud,

then han bake acid. It's funny You say that. I mean,

you know, like, a number.

Yeah. And it's funny you say that. Because a number of years ago,

when our... My my boys were young. You really got them dialed out with a bunch of bait cast there's a bunch of gear.

And I would bring,

you know, say, stripe proficient, like a guy

brings a buddy and he can't...

He's never stripe her fit he's never thrown a shooting head. He's never thrown the big flies, and I'm like, I'll bring the gear rod, and, you know, if if he's got through the gear he's got through the gear rod.

It's like,

you hand a guy a bait caster

after watching imply cast And literally, I can't tell you how many times this has happened.

Within two casts that thing is

just

obliterated backlash and you're like, well, I think the fly fishing may be easier.

So

I completely agree. I think bait casting is incredibly hard, and probably harder than fly fishing.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I I definitely feel that way.

It's like I said, I mean, I taught my kids...

I've taught my kids how to do pretty much all of it. And

I would hand I would hand them a fly rod any day,

especially a a couple years ago. I mean, I don't... My my youngest son still is just kind of getting into bait caffeine. Yeah. And I've learned a bit about how to get them into it, like, just using

the school tension her, you know, letting them just heavy

heavy

wing.

And

and getting them a accustomed to kind of doing it where that they take their thumb off or they let it fly, it doesn't just completely lash. Because there's nothing harder than getting out of backlash.

No, man. In in you... I mean, you include me into that too. Like, I

when the boys were first learning how to bait cast. It's like, I wrench that thing down. It was like,

it was... They really had to work to throw that bait. Because

I think I I had to do one or two backlash on those on the bait cast. Sounds I was like,

you could literally drag an imp through the rocks and the trees

and whip it back and forth, and I could get it un entangled faster than this. You know?

Yeah.

Yeah. A hundred percent and hundred percent.

So when you when you look at... You know, you you have a really unique perspective

in fishing and that you've seen

the

the fly fishing

industry and the gear fishing industry.

And

it is,

you know, the biggest misconception, I think a lot of people have is cost,

but

The other thing too is you talked about the tournament angle. There's this competitive angle to the gear fishing world that just

on the average consumer in fly fishing. Doesn't really exist. I mean, they're competitive to catch the fish and they wanna get the biggest and the most and all that. But, like,

I know what these events you know, that I have to do with Sims and some of these companies that kinda cross over, like, when you meet these tournament anglers,

It is an intensity that you don't encounter in the fly fishing world.

Can you... Yeah. I mean, did these these those guys... Those guys that do it day in and day out

I mean, I used to kinda laugh when people would use the term athlete.

Yeah. But but,

man, they really are. It... It's, like, to be on a boat

every day

be traveling around the country

and doing it day in day out.

You gotta be fit, and you gotta be fit mentally and and pretty much physically. And they don't always look physically fit, but do those guys can go, man. Yeah. And they are fierce, fierce competitors.

That is... You know, that I.

That intensity is what... Like,

you take the most intense,

tightly wound guide in redding.

And they look like they should be on a hammock with a cocktail and a freaking umbrella compared to a tournament angle. You know what I mean? Like, those guys are intent. For sure.

And

Yeah.

I I just... You don't... It it it... And it's funny, you know, I mean, you know our buddy Chris Hart. It's like, I would talk to Chris Hart when he was trying to make it

in the tournament world. And

listening to how those guys prepare and the level of knowledge that those guys

have

about

just the environment that they're hunting

fishing

is

it doesn't even compare to what a fly fishing guide would have.

Would you agree or what do you think?

Yeah. I would agree, man. It's... Guiding is

guiding is it's it's so much different.

What I see what the tournament Anglers is, like,

a lot more

mental

ups and downs,

you know, but it's it's with yourself. Like, you can go out with a client

and

not catch fish one day,

and you could always blame it on him.

You know? Yeah. Totally. Basically. But if you go out, and you don't catch fish

and you're the guy running the boat,

that's gonna wear on you a little bit more in your head. Yeah. That is the, you know, that is an amazing point. Like, that that that that right there is absolutely spot on. It's like,

if I'm driving home from the river and had a shitty day. It's not my fault. I had shitty clients.

You know what I mean? Sure.

Is somebody is blame on? Totally. As a tournament Angle, a bass fisherman, you are holding the rod, man. You are driving the boat, like, you gotta own that and wear it. That's a that's a great point, man.

So... Yeah. There's no running... There's no running from yourself, man And I think that that's...

That's the biggest difference there

is it's more like when you go somewhere to fish for yourself and you get beat

You know? Yeah. And what that feels like you ever go somewhere to a river where you just know you're gonna catch them and you come length and you're, like, figure it out. You're like, man, I don't even know how to fish anymore. Oh, absolutely. It there is nothing... There is

there is no bigger gut punch. You know what I mean? It's like, it

I'm trying to think it's, like, you know, you go out and you pre fish the river or something before the the big stretch of guide trips and you just get blank.

Like,

you are scared out of your mind for the next couple days of guiding. You know what I mean? It's it's...

Yeah. You know I mean, you're like, well,

jeez, if I can't catch them. I'm freaking hose the next couple days with clients. You know?

So... Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and these guys got it... Those guys have to perform multiple days. You'll see it. You see it. It's like, they catch twenty pounds one day and catch one fish, you know, the next day.

And,

And so to be able to actually

feel good about going out there the third day if they make it, you know? Yeah. It's it's so up and down. You see it when you when you watch it. I mean, it's so funny, man. I watch so much about this now. It's just about all I watch. Like, I don't have a Tv,

but my kids and I watch some stuff online.

And that's the only thing that I really

watch, you know, kind of on the regular.

Yeah. And then I'll let... And then I'll let my kids watch quite a bit of. But a lot of it is just, you know, watching these guys go up and down with this stuff and

And

it's

it's a mental struggle for them, you know, as well as physical. But mentally,

it wears on people, but when they win

the look on their face and just, like, the

like, you know, win in a hundred k or win in two Yeah. Two hundred and fifty thousand or a boat or whatever.

You know, even if it's just a local tournament, whatever it is,

I mean, you could just tell

the high of it. You know. Right? But you can also see that you can also see the low of it when it goes the other direction. Well, you can kind of... You can kind of assume if the high is that high, the low must be equally low. Right? You know.

To be that high, you have to have been pretty low.

You know?

Absolutely. I mean, there's no... There's not a person that I know

that

that, you know, ghost fishing

that doesn't have a bad day on time to time. Totally. And

and it always wears on it. Yeah. Always... It's like, how do I not know what I'm doing. Like, you'll hear people say that. I don't even know what I'm doing. Yeah. You know, Like, that's... I've heard that from.

Guys that I know

are super skilled. Yeah. You know? It happens

to some people a little less than others.

But it happens to everybody.

And getting... Is... There's nothing... It's so funny because there's nothing that can bring somebody down. There's a, you know,

a full time angle quicker than not catching finished. You know, It's like Yeah. It's like sweeping the rug out for my room.

And and they're just... They're just

himself. They can't figure out. Especially,

you know,

guy on the bank duncan of earth worm, you know, and catches the ten pounder.

Oh, yeah. And that's usually what happens, like, some of those days were you were, like,

and that guy over, you know, this guy over here fish in thirty pound, you know, mono,

top twenty fish and Here I am. I'm supposed to know what I'm doing. I mean, I see that with my kids now. My youngest... My youngest and my oldest son

have both out me at the lake multiple times.

And

they're just

I don't... I mean, I I I tie it all on for them for the most part. My my oldest son, I don't anymore, but my youngest son, I still, like, tie stuff together. Totally. I don't... It's like, I don't know. And sometimes they're like, I got one and... I'm, like, yeah, you got the bottom. You know? End they do. They have a fish. You know? You're just like, why? Yeah.

How'd you stumble that?

And so you're, like, you know, you're like, well, he catch them Why You catch one. You know? And it doesn't always work that way. I mean, there's a bit of a lot there. I think there's a little bit of,

you know, there's some... Obviously skill involved, but

it can happen to you. And when it does, there's nothing more frustrating

and not being able to catch a fish. Like, it's so funny what it can do to people or even yourself.

But

Agree, man. I I I think I think if you keep going at it,

and keep plugging away at it.

Eventually,

you realize that you'd... I'm not always here just to catch them and

you you kind of have to you have to mentally learn to get over that. I I... That's what I'm trying to teach my kids now is, like,

how to be okay with not catching fish, you know? Told some people... Some people can't do it. It's, like, how did you get or how... You know,

is they only talk about stuff when somebody guys only talk about when they catch, You know? Well, not that kinda leads me into a question. I I I...

I've met... You know, you and me, we we kinda started talking about how we, like,

you know, got into bass fishing to

get away from people and, like, enjoy and kinda be at at peace. And you know, I think you and me

get a lot of that esoteric

kind of connection with the outdoors and such with fishing. And En, it's... It may not be about the numbers we put in the boat at the end of the day.

Yeah.

In bass fishing, is that a thing? Like, is just getting out

you know, because most of the ba guys that I come in contact with. They are absolutely so intense.

I could not imagine them fishing

relaxed.

You know what I mean? And, like, being, like, god, the lakes beautiful today.

You know what I mean? Like, it... It is just so driven.

And is that thing? I mean, is that lost on that that...

Is it so

five fish biggest fish go? You know what I mean?

I think that... I I I think it varies front person to person and I mean, that's always that I I

I skipped both sides

with... Is... I think when they're out

floor out there to have a good time.

They'll find some good in it, you know. Yeah.

I think on... I think on days when they're tournament fishing, obviously,

that's not what you want. You know? Yeah. That's another day mortgage, man. Like that right on other days, they're probably

good to just, you know, just to be out there. A lot of people, you know, say, I enjoy being on the water.

You're not gonna hear... I just enjoy being on the water. If you got money on the line. Yeah.

I mean, so I think on... I think for... Tournament guys on Tournament day, it's it's really

the necessity eat to catch fish and and try to catch them and probably not gonna feel good about not catching them. Right? Yeah.

But on other days, I think most of those guys get into that stuff with the general love of the outdoors,

has a lot of people do and the aux season in their hunting.

Yeah. You know, doing other outdoor activities. I mean, at least the guys that I ran into in the industry. Yeah. They're root... They seemed a lot of them are big outdoors. You know, And and Yeah. And and I would agree with that. I'm just curious because it there is a level of intensity in

that world. You know, it is the guy... From the guy that's spent a thousand dollars on rubber worms. Right? Like, Sure. To the guy that is,

you know, has Toyota on the front of his Jersey and is, you know,

fishing for a million dollars. Like, it it. It is just,

you know, I I I spend so much time on the bass lakes and in the past. I I mean, I tell people I spend more time around conventional anglers than I do fly fishermen at this day. And there is an intensity

that just isn't present in the fly fishing world. You know what I mean? Yeah

It

it it always

I always get a kick out of people that look down

at that bass fishing or conventional fishing world because I'm, like,

if you fished with that much intensity,

you've, you know, you take your average guy be like you fly fish, you know, for ten years. If you fish those ten years with the intensity with which this guy is fished for five years,

you'd be the best angle out here. You know what I mean? Like,

it... The focus those guys have the intensity, the knowledge. I mean, I'll I'll never forget listening to

Bobby Barr

explain

oxygen contents of various weed species to Costello.

Mh. And just being in... Yeah. He can get intense being... Right? And just being, like,

holy

cow.

You know, your knowledge of your environment and what you are doing and it it it.

The biggest bug nerd in fly fishing doesn't scratch that. You know what I mean? Getting getting into that objective of people

judging,

I I do feel like a lot of judgment

is

non effective, you know, for. Vision in general.

Yeah. You know? And like I said, I mean, I don't know. I've I've been there too you, but

there's really should shouldn't be any division in any any kind of dangling. It's just fishing, You know? Yeah. Right? It doesn't really matter how you do it. Like,

you're not any less if you do it this way. You're not any anymore if you do it that way.

You know?

It just... The people that are

the real winners are the ones that go out there and just tough on, you know? And,

that's what I try to teach my kids all the time. And is like, don't don't judge that for like.

That guy's

doing this. So that guy's doing that. And I always tell him Yeah. That's what he wants to do.

It's fun. That's just as fun as what you're doing, you know? Totally. And and they they kind of do everything.

They and they... And so I found over time that

they see it.

They're... It's more positive for them now. They're like, oh, cool. That got of flat fishing. You know? And we... Because it's random that we see people down here fishing on these lakes with the fly rod.

It used to often maybe one or a few other guys around. Yeah. And now I've seen, like, over the years, I've seen more and more people getting out there,

you know, And he just did off your sore farm,

you know,

it's like, people notice the line's different. I mean, people used to stare at me all the time walking around the banks, you know, Yeah. And and and fly rods on these local lake

different weren't use...

For me, it's, like,

I've seen so little of it. I'm... I'm not used to seeing it, you know.

But when mike said...

Because they fly fish too and they like it.

You know, they're always, like, excited to see it. They're always excited to see somebody else doing it and make them wanna get theirs out, you know? Whereas if I was like, well, yeah. You know, that that's not how you wanna do it. You know, if I... If I was saying that, because then they would they would go the other opposite the direction, you know? Yeah. But I'm always like, yeah. I mean, that's fun. Hey, you have one at home, Like, if you ever... But, if you ask my kids, well you wanna bring to like there they're, like, one fly rod, one spinning and Rod one day after. I mean, every single time I go out there. They say the answer is the same.

Let's go bring everything pop. What everything. Yeah. Bring everything back I'm like,

dude. I'm like, hey.

So narrow it down to, like, two. You know? And don't forget the sodas. Let's go. And, you know, and if moms in the book

the flash she's not take one to the head. Yeah. Totally.

Heather... They get kinda wild with them, You know? They're still learning,

but the coffee station really good out at some local league. I let them break the fly rods out like, in

around

and the action group

both like,

it's the way to catch them.

Out the gear,

if if you know what you're doing.

And if you... And you have right stuff. I mean, on these legs down here with all the s,

nothing better, chad taser than, you know,

a good shot... A s. You know, Mean, it looks real to spend,

and they can

now, and I just... You know, I always have a fly rod in the locker of my boat.

And there's days that I break that thing out, and

it's the way to go. I mean, it's gonna catch you more fish then off plastics.

Yeah. And so there is a time for everything,

and,

And during those times, man, I'll let my kids take full advantages.

And they

just like they would everything else. And I think it just makes them more well rounded,

you know? And and it and it would make a lot of anglers more well rounded to try everything. You know? Well, it's funny. I think they're... You're just limiting yourself to just doing one thing or saying why only fly fishing. And some... It's not just saying that it's the way that people saying it. Right? Yeah. It's the way that they... The way that they use that statement

is,

like, you're, you know, at the top of the wall, they're at the top of the wall and you're a step below them.

Well, and it's funny you say how that. Well, you're absolutely right. I grew with the hundred percent, man, and it... It's funny because

as you diver

into the more

conventional bass world, I kept on that fly fishing path to bass. And

I got into it via you because

when my kids were young, it's like my kids are four and five. Like, they're not throwing eight weights for stripe in large mouth. So

What what do I gotta do to take my kids fishing. Yeah. And it was, like, we're gonna call K and K gonna figure this out. And, you know,

we were fishing bait caster and swim baits. And I mean, I don't know how many techs back and forth with

What do I do with this What I do with that? How do I do this? What do I do? You know?

And

that was

my introduction to the gear fishing world, and it... What it was? It was via my kids. And it and to be honest, like, it got my kids out.

And my kids, just like you're saying like,

p rod, gear rod, bay cast, like, they don't really... It's just fishing. Right? They're gonna get they're gonna get skittles and some soda.

And we're gonna be. You know what I mean? And we're gonna throw some shit in the water and see if something eats it, and it could be a fly. It could be a live min or it could be a rubber

you know,

you know, worm.

And it it's... Yeah.

I've learned so much about

fishing

from opening my mind to what

is

completely out there, not just going well I'm gonna do this with a fly rod and flies.

But

how many different ways can you catch these fish? And, you know,

I think you figured this out probably before anyone I know If, like,

there is so much out there.

If you just look. You know what I mean? If you just open your mind just a little bit. And,

you know, it's changed the way I fish,

picking up a gear rod. You know what I mean? And, like you said, like, there some days, that the fly rods gonna be the ticket. There's some days that the bait caster is gonna be the ticket. There's some days that

none of them are gonna be the ticket.

You know,

It's being outside the ticket.

Exactly. Right? Like, and that's... It's...

I think

I think fly fishing has gotten better,

but I also think

most people in fly fishing, your average fly fishermen.

Unless they come from that.

Fast fishing world. Really don't know

the depth of knowledge that exists in that world.

You know what I mean?

Yeah. No. There's really, really anglers out there.

I mean,

with a fishing rod. I mean, you watch these guys, you know, skipping jigs under docs and just really precise

casting.

They're very skilled.

And there is nothing...

There's there's nothing,

you know,

less superior about them. I mean, a lot of them are some of the best anglers I've I've ever met in my life. And could probably do whatever they wanna do. It's just what they prefer to do.

Absolutely.

And

and you are really cutting out your knowledge of

things

when you limit yourself to what it is that you're willing to learn,

and where

where you draw it your lines, You know? And and a lot of these gear guys won't necessarily fly fish either,

But what I noticed the bottom is they... There... The way that they talk about flat fishermen

is not the same

as the flat fisherman talked about here.

They're very

about that? Like, I've never

fit put on a boat with the gear guy with my Fly rod and had him looked down.

If you did they didn't say anything.

Yeah. That's very true. It's often

always we've been mad and you, I won't catch.

You know? It's... They're curious.

You know what I mean? Totally. They're fishermen and they see that as a fishing tool, and they're like, I've never used that tool? What is that tool do?

You know? For sure. And they they wanna see... They just wanna see if it's, like, really that affected too. You know Yeah. And and so I've always been positive. I feel like,

going that direction.

Whereas, like,

you know,

if I step on your drift boat tomorrow,

you know,

on the madison and I got, you know, pin rod with a N under or a barber,

You're probably gonna look at me like, you? What the hell are you doing?

Yeah You know what I mean? Yeah. And, I'm gonna get that... You're gonna get some resistance for sure. Right? Yeah. And

and so

I do feel like the way that they look at each other. The two sports look at each other. I do feel from a gear side that it's

it's much more positive going the other way. I... And I would agree come in would definitely agree.

I mean, I'll put it I I'll put a to you this way, like, if you look at, like, what I'm doing now,

like...

I came from working

at

two different flash shops for close to a decade,

and

I walked right into this and nobody ever

judge me for that.

Yeah. Now if I if I work at Joe's bait shop for ten years, and I tried to go and get a job

at a fly shop somewhere,

how would they look at that experience?

That's very true. Even if I was not, even if I was knowledgeable,

you know, even if I knew exactly what I was doing?

They would say, well where you come from?

Yeah. Well, I came from Joe's Bait and tackle. What'd you sell there? Worms and bait, you know?

The name.

Dude says it in the name. You know? And it's... And and so I I think that that to me says enough, like, nobody ever judged me

down here for the fact that I came from fly fishing. Yeah you know?

And if, like I said, if they in... If they did, they never say anything to me, but just looking at what I'm accomplished down here, I would say that that was never a factor.

You know, they just looked at me for the type of employee y'all was gonna be

And

like I said, it did take me a few years to kind of, like, make the jump, and I and I realized that my job got easier

as I started to do

more conventional style fishing

And, man and I am no... By no means an expert Stuff. Like, I am still learning every day, and that's what's kinda fun about it. It's, like, the early days of fly fishing for me. It's just a learning process.

Yeah. And I'm learning every day.

And dude now, it's instead of looking in the fly ins then. I I look, you know, at the website for,

you know, worms or plastic or stuff that I like

so,

and

print it all. Like, I mean, I

I wanna learn more stuff with a spinning rod. I wanna learn more stuff with the bake. I wanna throw a big twin. So I wanna do everything. Yeah. Like, there's... For me, It's like I said, it's not... I'm not out there trying to catch all these fish.

I'm out there trying to catch them the way that I wanna catch them

with stuff that's cool, and I've learned that some things I really like to do. Other things I don't like to do as much, and I get the ticket and choose because I'm not out there to put five in the boat.

I'm out there to put a smile on my face

or,

you know,

have my kids get something, you know? And I'll I'll do whatever it it takes

to to make that happen to make sure that

the experience is what I want it to be, and that might even be just pulling over in a code and taking a nap.

Like it's just. You know what I mean It's Absolutely.

It is it it is what it is. But I do feel like there's some judgment on, but on on both sides at times, but I do feel like

the positivity from the gear side to the fly side is

is is much

greater.

And

good I too and

Yeah. And so many nice people. I've met so many cool people

in the gear industry

that I would have never met before. Some of the nicest people I've ever met, and they're not... They're just not a stuffy.

It doesn't feel as...

It just it just feels more genuine at times. Well, that, you know, the people that I... That are peep... The guys that I run into that are that are gear fishermen.

It it's

they haven't lost what fishing about. They don't take themselves that serious. You know what I mean? Outside of your tournament bass anglers, which is a, like, in my world,

in my estimation is, like, a completely

independent breed of human being.

Like, Yeah. Your average dude I run into it, the boat ramp,

it, you know, when I pull into Or or when I pull into butte city,

you know, if you pull... If I was to pull into pos grounds now where there's, you know, x number of new guides that don't know who I am from Adam.

The looks I would get from them versus the looks I get from

the gear guys at Or or S or butte.

It's night and day. You know what I mean Yeah? It's just a

it's a different vibe. You know what I mean? Yeah? It's it's

it's a different vibe. And I I would agree with you a hundred percent, man. I mean, it's... I think I've made more friends in the gear world quicker

than I made friends in the fly fishing world in the same amount of time.

You know? Yeah. And the average gear guy just doesn't take it

that seriously, but at the same time,

the average gear guy, the amount of knowledge that these guys have is absolutely insane.

It's like, if if any... Like, I always say this all the time, I say this to a bunch of people.

If any gear guy

decided he wanted to be a fly fishing guide, we'd be fucked.

Because

Like, the intensity

and the, like, depth of knowledge that they are gonna go out and get,

like, we're done. Like, if all the conventional ba guys were like, hey, you know what? We're gonna buy drift boats in roam down the sack. Like we're done. Like we are done

because Yeah it's over. Game over.

You know?

Yeah.

I agree, man. I think that ego is a is a...

Driving factor

for really,

you know, make making the sport negative at times on either side. Yeah. You know. And and I just define it, I come across less egos

now.

Than I did.

And I don't know if that has to do with

the amount of money being made

or the amount of opportunity because they're definitely different.

Yeah. I feel like there's more opportunity in than so there's more money being made,

sales are better.

There's just a little bit more but more than for everyone.

It's not a seasonal,

out of turf fishing, fit fishing happens, you know, even in the winter

Yeah. Less in the summer,

you know, when... So I feel like

I don't... I mean, I guess, I don't... I just don't know if that's part of where it stems from.

But I I do feel like the ego

egos that I run into now

are far less. And

And I don't know. Man, Sometimes, like, you go to a show, like, I I mean, the...

The flat fishing industry isn't at

the

isn't at Cast anymore, and they they split it back up. But for the fears that they were there, and I was doing

going and and I would still go around and visit, you know, some deeds that I knew

you can spot those dudes a mile away. Man.

It's just like, you know what I mean? Just... I know exact you're saying. They gotta dress better. They got a cut nicer, you know, they're in the

bathroom with their man's going,

looking nice and pretty dude. You know, and it's big deal. Dude. They're big deal. It's a big dude just big show all the way. Man, and hey, not that there's not ego on both sides, but it's like, see, they really... You can really tell the difference, Like, you can spot them a mile away and,

you know, Yeah. I mean, I I don't know. I wish I looked not handsome, but then again, I It's like, I just wanna go there and just be relaxed. You know, I

sure tucked it.

As long as I'm there doing,

man, that one seems to come on. No one's like, looking at me like, oh, you're wearing pink van.

It's like, they... You know, they're just they... I tell them who I am and what I'm there for and they're like, dope, you know? And Yeah. And we just take care of. We just... We're just there to do business. We're not there to look pretty and

and make make people think that we're something that we're not. You know? And

I don't ever... Like, for me, I don't ever want my kids to act like that. And that's why I'm getting them into bath fishing the way that

the that that I am,

you know, and,

you know,

going... Not that I wouldn't throw a drift boat anymore, but, like, I you know, I pull a bass boat behind my truck now. And Yeah. I'm psyche. So I'm psyche on it. You know, my kids are psyche on it. So I'm psyche on it. And and,

they they love the sport. Like, they're

my oldest son especially. And he's only seven. I mean, it's like, he he

sleeps and breeze it. That's like, all he wants to do.

He can't go. He cried.

Yeah. He'll sit down and you know, sit down and cry that he can't hit the leg, you know?

Well, that's so it's funny how we always start kids is very synonymous. You know what I mean? Like, our our kids see it as

fishing.

You know what I mean? It's just fishing. It's you're like, Mh? You know, my kids is, like,

it...

They don't categorize it as to what the rod is in your hand. It's just... We're going in the boat. The boats going behind the truck. We're gonna stop at the gas station and get some wicked ass junk food,

and we're going and we're going fishing. Like,

And there's something to be you be any more hype as a kid. Like, hi. It's like, you know, they're... I mean, it's good on you dude because it's like you're... They're growing up getting to do things that

they're probably not gonna really even

respect as much

until

down the road, you know? Like, maybe when we're gone. Yeah. You know? No. I say that all. And when they look back on it, you know, my my oldest this son so that to me other day. Was like, hey. You know?

I don't want you to ever sell this book because,

you know, when you're gone, I'll have a good memorizing of you.

You know, He's like,

I just thought to myself, man. Like, here you were not that long ago, just like a little pee.

And

now I see him out there on the front of the boat, driving the trolling motor, you know?

He'll get on the big motor sometimes.

Yeah. Even though it's illegal.

Don't tell anybody my case do. I don't tell anybody. Yeah. But he... You know, like, I'll let him... You know, I'll let him do those things. I'm giving them some

experience

that most kids aren't gonna see,

and what I've learned from it is now he just passes it on to his little brother, and I teach my youngest son about a third of what I talk my oldest son. Yeah. So to watch him

teach him is, like, sometimes I just sit how can I watch this to? And dude, I don't even need to make cash. Thanks oh, yeah. It's good enough for me to just watch them

and sit there and I'm, like,

this is what it's all about for me is, like,

getting these kids, a different perspective on my... Their plan

identification, their bird

identification,

fish,

they know things that most kids don't know

about the outdoors. And I feel like that that, those are

pertinent. You know, They're the real things that they can grow on.

Oh wow. And

versus, you know, and not this not that we don't watch some show here and there. I mean, we... They do. But... Oh, yeah. It's it's rare. It's limited,

and they get a lot more out

outside time and book time

then they do

getting caught up in in the fast paced world that's that's around us now where everybody's

doing something for a pound on the back. And,

and and, you know, it's all about

just media

and follows and likes

and,

you know, content and what you can do. And and, you know, there's kids out there that are look... You know, my kids days that are probably millionaires off of the Internet. And if if money is you're drive, then that's cool,

that's that's that's your thing. You know,

I just

for me, I just want them to be able to

cook for themselves,

wipe their own, but,

you know, go out and enjoy nature for what it is. Have some respect for it, keep it around.

Yeah. You know, can contribute, be respectful to other people.

And I and I feel like you can learn that yeah go.

You can learn that stuff in a classroom too, but as a young

be coop up like that, and I feel like the more I have them outside, parenting is easier.

And

the way that I see them grow up is better.

Their social skills

are great. They they like

everybody.

They they have no limitations, not jade by what they hear and see

from other kids who might be

influencing their mind at the same age that just don't know. You know. For sure.

And so at... The more time I can spend with him outside

the better man and that's that's what I'm gonna continue to do until

until, I can anymore and and then I'm hoping that they'll just do it themselves. And if not, And if they get away from it, maybe they'll come back to it, and that's kind of what I did

you know, growing up, but...

Oh, god. That to me is is where I see them going is, you know, just

outside

always. And

and that's where you're... That's where I found myself you know, And I feel like that's where they're gonna find their true calling.

Yeah.

I think, you know, and that's a, man. I mean, we're sniffing on a

hour and a half here, and that's about as good a placed and as not because I I I couldn't agree with you more, man. I mean, it's it's been fun to watch you raise your boys because it confirms

how I raise mine.

You know what I mean? And I'm sure completely. I'm sure that goes both ways. So

On that note,

I would highly encourage everyone to check out Taco warehouse.

And

if you if you were not paying attention to what's going on with in the gear world.

Taco a warehouse with all the blogs,

all their social media,

all that type of stuff is a great place to kinda get tuned in to what is going on.

It... It's a the equivalent of a fly shop for the gear world. It is the best of the best. So,

K, I can't thank you enough for coming on, man. You and me can talk all night. I'm sure you're standing outside your front porch or something in the dark right now. So,

I wanna... Hey real quick, man. I just wanna... I just wanna say some quick thanks and Yeah real quick before I get off the line here, but I just wanna say thanks to everybody out there that's ever helped me in any in any aspect of the sport fishing.

To me it's one of the to me is the best part out there, whether you're fly fishing, gear fishing whatever it is, all the guys at taco warehouse

to... Those guys have really opened my mind in my eyes to

to just life in general. And man and I've gone through a lot being down here, raising kids.

They've always been non biased,

super super supportive. Everybody in the office there. Everybody at that place.

The super hard workers.

And, yeah, you know, yourself,

Jl lo,

all the all the Chico guys, man. I just wanna say thanks to everybody. I know I'm gonna miss the pile of names, but

this has been a blast, man. And,

yeah. I I look forward to seeing everybody

outside on the water we're

where the, you know, we make things happen. That's the place to be.

That's right, man.

Alright, guys. Well, hey, thank you for tuning in. Hopefully, you enjoyed today, and

this is Hogan Brown. We're gonna sign off. Check out the barb podcast dot c, and we'll see you next time. Alright. Take care.

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