Being a Black Man in Fly Fishing - Alvin Dedeaux

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Hey. Welcome to another episode of the Barb Fly fishing podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Chad A, and on the phone with me, and I'll go down the line. C host first,

Nick Hanna. Nick, what's up.

Hey, man. How you doing? Good. Good.

Awesome I'm excited. This is a fun time. Sorry. Had fun time year. I'm just thinking about the the hex hatch coming off.

Know, trackers running in our river system and

dealing with the ten day old. So I'm like, alright. When when she gonna let me go? When do I get to go fishing?

Yeah. You've been kicked new baby and so, you

Well, we we also have on on the on the line with us Alvin Did, Alvin Hi. How are you?

I'm doing great. Just dealing with Kiddo all day myself, but

I was on the water yesterday, and I'll be on the water tomorrow, sir. Nice. And I'm not feeling pain check. I definitely wanna get into that in a second, And we also have,

cor doctor with us from rep your water. Ko what's up.

Hey, and it's Cor corinne. Corinne. The My yeah. It's alright. I was telling... I I called Alvin before. I'm like, okay, dude. I always mess up people's last names. How do you just phonetic phonetic give me your your last name. So I got his name right, I think, and then, of course, I butcher your yours. It's just, like, Well, that's okay. I get... I get any number of of versions and I speak Spanish too so I get Quota all the time. So no worries.

Yeah. All good over here. I do not have kids, and so I also Am able to go fishing. Awesome. So

just to be on topic then. I'll just get to go because because that's how I pay the queue. Exactly.

That's awesome.

So... Yeah. I mean, we're gonna... The topic we're gonna discuss basically is is

racism.

You know, if you guys saw the Black squares that hit your feeds and everything else last. I guess it was last week this time, I think this episode is gonna error this week, So I think that time time frame still relevant.

You know, there was a lot of... There was a lot of stuff going on last week. There continues to be riots across the the country.

Alvin

posted a a video that really got my gears going,

and we're gonna work... Play the the audio from that video in a bit, and then we'll queue up that conversation around just, you know, basically,

being a black

man in

fly fishing in our sport, and and and in the reality of that, because that's really what he talks about in this video that we're gonna the audio we're gonna play for you in a second.

But first, before we dive into that,

I wanna kinda get an update from from Nick, Nick. I know you have a kid, we just mentioned that, to be been fishing, and then we'll just kinda go down the line with Alvin, and in Korean also, did I say your... Your name right this time, Corinne? Cor. Yeah. Corinne jesus.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel you're playing in. Yeah. It's alright.

Yeah. So I just hit stop and start over now. Let's just let's keep going. All metal back. It's natural. Oh, I'm my the best I can. I don't wanna talk about much of what I've been I'm doing, Really anything just because we've been so busy, but, I... I'm really interested to hear more about Koreans and and and Allan travels and and what they like to fish for.

I was watching some of his videos of of him cruising down of upstream in Texas and hitting the banks with a a ba. And I was like, alright. That looks freaking fun. You know?

Okay. I'll I wanna hear Wanna hear more about that. And I wanna talk to him about it. And you were you You were on, like, episode one or two of of the the the boat? Is it was is that what it was? The dos boat. Oh, yeah. Da boat. Yeah. Yeah. That's boat. Sure. Watch that. I was like, that looks pretty fun. I I would do that. That was that was a good time. Yeah. And you guys were the fur... You guys got the boat, like, you were one of the first ones to kinda mod it. Right? From what I remember. Yeah. We were the we were the second ones to get the boat, the the boat started off down in Puerto Kansas.

And Steven Ran

Was in that episode with My buddy Jt Van van. And they went

fishing for Red fish on the coast. And Yeah. I don't think... The mod they did down there basically was putting the new motor on the boat.

So Jt didn't didn't really monitor anything. But when we got it here,

we put orders on it. Mh. And put

let's see what we put Orders on it. Oh, and we put a

a gun mounted grill.

That that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. That those those are our two mods that we put a new wrench on it and a couple of other things just kinda make If you guys listen wood. If you haven't watch that dos boat series. And did Yeti do it? I forget who did it. Was it meet meat eater?

Yeah. Meat eater. Yeah. Meat eater did it. It's on Youtube. It's awesome there,

oliver Nye who's been on the show is in it. He finishes with

remind me who he faced with again.

Who was? I don't remember.

Come on, Nick. Just describe the concept for the people that don't understand what you guys are even talking about with the doc, okay. Okay. So so so do both and it was

myles multi it was his idea. He's one of the the... He's, like, the fishing content type of meat eater. And

the idea was to get a classic

American

fishing boat. Classic as in old.

And and basically

take the boat on a road trip. So so

it didn't... It started in Texas. They bought the boat side scene from a guy in Houston.

I believe it was.

And the idea was that the boat would go to a new destination,

two

new Fishermen

or Fisher women, Fisher folks at every destination, and and you got, like, a certain

amount. I can't remember it was five hundred bucks or eight hundred bucks to do

modifications to the boat to make it more suitable for your beneficiary. And

I mean, and we're talking it was a old,

and I'm gonna say this boat

had to be at least from the seventy just not older.

So, you know, it was it was, you know, it was it was it was a good concept because it... The idea was is, like, this is the boat that anybody could have.

Anybody could buy this boat. Anybody can afford this boat. A lot of us grew up in this boat. And so we kinda, like, cook this boat and, you know, showed... Okay. Here's what you can do with this boat. And it was it was it was a great concept though I think it I thinking it ended up being a really great show. Yeah. That's that's great. Exactly right. Like, if I... That's the boat I first started. And it was literally, like duct tape together. You know? And

and I I'm I'm sure a lot of people experience something something like that. Such a it's such a cool idea. Yeah. Really good idea. But I... What I thought was also cool is they they they seem to pair a conventional person with a fly person at same in in the same boat. Which was kinda cool because it covered all the techniques and and, you know, they, you know, I... It was April V that actually fished with Oliver.

Now that Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And they were kinda like going head to head, and it was kinda... It was fun to watch. They had... They had a tough day. There's was a lot of wind and pretty much all over her chewed up because he's, obviously on a conventional rod and a lot easier in the one. Yeah. Yeah. But but, it was the opposite here. We ended up,

you know, a fish got them.

Terrible. I'm blanking on his name at the moment. The owner of Bad dewey is awesome restaurant here in Austin. And

he's actually actually pretty good flat fisherman, but he started off.

Fishing conventional tackle, and I was kicking his butt with the flower rod. So he got the flower rod out. We saw most of our fish on the flower rod. Including

a stint with some lab bait that didn't produce as well as rod did Yeah. Yeah. I man. I mean, but, you know, we're river fish efficient. So it's a little different. It's not like there's in the lake. I mean, there's no deep water and the water's moving, and you can't really post stuff and soak in, you know. That... That's kinda game. That's our game here too. We're on the Sacramento. So we're you know, we're on moving moving water fishing anywhere between two to ten feet usually.

Yeah. Yeah. Same thing here.

That's cool. And you guys actually cooked something. I remember you yes. Get something. Yeah. Jessie group. Yeah. Jessie Griffith. He's a guy that was on the boat with me. Yeah. He's in an awesome chef owns this really awesome kind of farm table

restaurant here in Austin, and we cooked up our native

state fish

which I've never eaten before And some people were are, like, oh my god. I can't believe they're killing and eating a bath. Was it was it upstream pain Austin or downstream from Austin. That's a big... Downstream downstream.

Nice. What what of quality is pretty good down there. Okay. I thought you'd had all going in the dark for a few days after. No. No. Not too bad. Not too bad. There's a there's a few spots Probably I wouldn't wait a line, but you know, for the most part, the water quality is pretty good.

Well, trend has been chime. Yeah. Again and tell us about the your latest adventure. And I got her name well. Try. Yeah. And that's

Perfect. Yeah. No Tv shows for me, but

yeah. Anytime I can get out, I'm gonna do it. The good news bad news is

I was just down in New Mexico, which was beautiful. We got a bunch of

little native cut, but we were supposed to be in iceland right now.

Yeah. So it's a little bit of a hard trade off, you know, like, literal three foot brown drought being an option in iceland and nine inch little cut, but you gotta

gotta make lemonade when

when you have a virus in the world.

And correct correct. Yeah. For those those folks they don't know rep your water. Can you kinda talk about that brand a bit and and it's Genesis.

Yeah. We're an apparel company and it's my husband, Garrison and I, we are the the sole prop priorities, founders, owners. We have one other employee

right now.

And

it's basically,

your water means represent your water. So both

aesthetically. We have a lot of designs that are based on

location state,

then we have a whole bunch that are species, and we have a bunch of lifestyle apparel, And then the other piece of the represent is we donate at least three percent of all of our sales

conservation. So

we are creeping up

probably in the next four months I would anticipate will be at a quarter million dollars donated to conservation.

Yeah, in two thousand eleven. So that's kind of the the elevated pitch of river water then in between working, we're we're fishing whenever we can. We've had some amazing opportunities to

In South America, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia,

Iceland was gonna be our first foray into Europe to just specifically fish and then all around the Us.

Where's your favorite? What was the the go ahead. I was just gonna.

I was just gonna ask that same thing as I saw some golden Dorado

pictures on your on your feed. What, I wanted to ask you what you thought about that

and maybe the final, you know, what Chad said, what was your favorite

species to go after. Oh, gosh. I mean, why do I think about Golden dorado. I would do it in my life is fine.

They are

the most fun fish. Everybody tries to kinda put them in a, in a box so they're kinda like a a brown trout because they love structure.

And if you hook ones, they will try to go to structure, you can hook them right off structure, but they also have a little baby tarp in them where they'll jump immediately and just be super.

But then you'll touch one that's more like a large amount fab, that'll it'll just bulldog you and you can't do anything about it.

And you're in the middle of the Amazon, and it's

the most beautiful place on earth. It's also the hottest I've ever been. I don't know. I'd probably compares to austin and alvin.

It's it's not quite as humid here. Yeah. The jungle, but... Yeah We were

this hot. Yeah. We were there, like, in the in the fall, and so the rain season was coming on so it was, like, even more humid it. It was so hot, but you just forget about it as soon as you're looking for these fish. Slight fishing for them. Every day you're with two native god.

And a fishing guide, and the native guys can see fish.

Like, you're wearing your fancy two hundred dollar polarized sunglasses.

And these native guys, they, like, stand up on a tiny little rock and they go. Right there, Casa, which is the native word for dorado. They're like casa casa and you're, like, I see nothing. But I trust me.

Has... No cold glasses at all.

No. These guys are no glasses. Some of them wear half, maybe

no shoes.

And they can weigh better with no shoes than

any fancy waiting boot you could come up with.

Yeah. They're in their element, and they take such good care of the por goes that go down there and

and where every

protective equipment. What country were you in? That's Bolivia. Bolivia. Okay. Okay.

Where I've heard

I

I got some theaters out on that. I was gonna say

so steelers out, ma'am... Yeah.

Amazing. And then the

operation is run by Argentine

and Bolivia and

Brazilian

group. And so all the guides for the most part of Argentina,

just because there isn't much of a history of fly fishing in Bolivia. Yeah.

So all the guide. That's super cool. The gold Golden rad at the bucket list, you know. Place I I I have to visit some in my life. And, now, we...

We're lucky to have a sacramento rug in our backyard in which has, you know, the fifty pound stripe in it, and I keep imagining, like, what it would be like to hook like a... Just even like a pan fifteen pound stripe and watch it. Like, flying out of water. Oh, yeah. You know? Because they don't they don't really jump. You know, they they tend to just stay down and pull pull hard. Yeah. But it's pretty pretty phenomenal. It seems like a pretty phenomenal beneficiary that it's... Yeah. Definitely.

And they work the upper operate... The fishing operation work with the living government and the tribe. And so it's... They take really good care of the environment. They do all this conservation work. They take really good care of the tribe. They help them all of their medical blood that they would not otherwise have access to. So we were supposed to go debt I'm in July, obviously, closed off right now because the last thing that we need to do is bring a virus into, Christine pristine community.

So

That's another thing that I'll be delayed for another year, but that's fine. I'll I'll wait another lifetime to get down there.

Alright. Well, I guess, I'm gonna have to go... Ahead and put that through. Oh, look. It.

For through.

Well, cool. Well, do you guys wanna... You guys wanna dive into the the topic at hand here.

Mh. Okay. Sure. Yeah. And I... I... This is... So I... We did... We did one

on sexual centralization of fly fishing. This was, like, three almost three years ago now. Yeah. Yeah. And we had a couple gals on, but I was nervous. I was really nervous before that episode. You know, I didn't really know how to cover it.

A lot of those same feelings are are coming up for this one for me personally.

Yeah. I

I'm definitely out of my lane.

I I I'd, you know, I questioned whether we should even even do it, but I kinda feel like we should especially after I I saw your your video alvin.

And it got me... It kinda got me thinking a bit a lot actually, and and after,

after we play this, this clip for you guys, I'll I'll kinda talk about, kinda my thought process and and how I parse it out, you know, after and then we'll we'll go from there. Does that sound cool?

Yeah. Before we do that with, Alvin, will you just tell people about your,

your guide business and and a little bit more about,

what you do out there in Texas?

Well,

I and my... Well, my wife and I own this guy service, it's called all water guides,

and we both guides. She guides I got, and we've got... Depending on time of year and need anywhere from half dozen to a dozen

guides working for us and with fish for ba,

in Central Texas,

and we also fish for trout on the Texas post, excuse me not problem in Texas. Those red fish on the Texas. We do have a

one little tail

fisher that we do trips on during the winter. And

I

have been guiding here and since to Texas

since sometime in the ninety. I was a manager of this

flash shop called Austin Angle, which

some people like to still remember. There was a,

they don't take American Express commercial they played during the Super Bowl back in, like, the late eighties, kinda put this place on the map, And that's where I started guidance when I was working there,

spent ten

seasons guiding,

in Colorado during the summers

before I had the wife and kids. And so now,

I'm just kinda of bouncing back and forth between Central Texas and the Texas Coast. I I was guiding on the coast yesterday, and I'll be guiding on the river tomorrow,

and it's it's really

it's really awesome because that, you know,

it's a it's a family affair. We've got two little kids, seven and ten that fish. I have a older, all girls, older,

daughter that's twenty two that fish is with us... Obviously, my wife fish is she guides.

We got

just

our whole backyard full of boats and we got boats parked in storage in other places.

I mean,

yeah. It's a it's a it's it's awesome though, because I mean, our whole existence is putting much all about flock. So,

you know, That's what dream a bit. It's very fortunate

very fortunate. My wife is is very smart and very well educated and

could definitely be sitting behind the desk and we're doing some

data research,

but

instead, she's sitting behind the desk booking trips and going fishing

because

this couldn't imagine doing it any other way. So we're we're really lucky in. The fact that we're in,

Austin, Texas and doing that because Austin Texas is not a known flat fishing

destination, but we have a lot of really,

avid black fishers in the Austin area, that fish with us and we're having starting to have more and more people who are traveling

to Texas and and Austin in the Texas Coast,

specifically for fly fishing. So

it's been really grateful for it. Just wake up every day and just go, man. How did we get so lucky.

That's cool. That's awesome.

I... I...

Just looking at some of your videos, I was... I

and to be honest, I've been to Texas a bunch because my aunt lives there, and I've never had a good time. Hanging out in that human weather, but then I've bought,

I've been to Austin and I'm... I love Austin Austin was a a super fun place to hang out. And so But just watching your videos,

and in your personality and the way you go about your business. I I mean, I would I would love to come with you sometime.

And highly recommend any of our listeners that if you guys are in that area, check check them out, you guys can... Find them at all water guides,

obviously. And then and for the gear too on record water,

they have some Awesome gear, so make sure you guys go online and and check out their stuff too as what... Well, so I just wanna give you guys a quick plug, I'm sure you're gonna have a chance to layer as well. No. I'm pretty

gotcha.

Probably always good.

I wanna know where in Colorado you got.

I was in the Vale area. So I guided the the eagle, the Colorado and the roaring board. Great.

And I think guys, I think I quit doing that. Maybe

this maybe my fifth summer in Texas. I mean, I I didn't spend the summer in Texas for a decade.

Yeah. I mean, I I'd roll out of here in June fifteenth and and not come back to the end of September. So I will notice that first.

Bad.

But, you know. That here in the in the front range of Colorado on the boulder. So... Oh, okay. Yeah. You know. No all that water. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

The Eagle man. I always tell everybody the Eagles the best river in Colorado that you never heard of. Yeah.

That is.

Yeah. Man. I, I've never heard of it. I you know. I on a it's tough. It's it's a

gotta be you gotta be on top of your game to ro it.

It's a pretty serious white water, and it's mostly private. So you kinda have to have to float it. And, that was that was one of the things I always tell everybody Was like, I made it a decade

row the Eagle

without flipping once. So I feel like I went out on top.

Exactly.

Well cool. Seems like such a cool name for a river adviser... There's... I don't think there's names of rivers are on here called Eagle Chad. It's not a. I just... It seems a cool name. There's lake, but that's about it.

Eagle Lake. Thank you.

Yeah.

Well,

with

without further ado, should we hit that, should we listen to this audio and then we can get into the the pause. Yeah. Okay. Cool.

Alright. So it was to just to frame this. This was

this was about ten days ago that you posted this. Correct? It was in early

Yeah. June. Probably, June. Yeah. Okay.

And things were popping off. They continue to pop off, but things started to pop off around that time. So I'm gonna play this. This is the audio from from his instagram video. Here we go.

It's coming.

I thing... Oh, shoot Let me try this again. I had the volume rocker all the way down. Alright. Here we go. This time it's gonna happen promise.

What's up y'all?

Alvin here.

And this video

is not about fly fishing.

This video is about racism.

If that's not something you wanna hear about, feel free to stop the video now, you're not gonna hurt my feelings.

We'll talk about fly fishing in the next one.

Trust me.

Okay.

So this is not a video I wanted to make,

but I feel like I have to make it.

Considering everything that's going on right now. Some of the discussions I've been seeing.

I feel like

it's my responsibility

to

let you guys know

my experience.

How I feel,

how my life has been.

First off, I wanna say

that I am very,

very

fortunate,

and I feel very,

very lucky

to have

the life that I have.

Please

do not feel sorry for me. I do not feel sorry for myself,

and I don't

want this video

to make anyone else

feel sorry for me.

I'm a black man

in America,

and that's my reality.

Like I said, I have been very fortunate

I live a great life.

I love what I do.

I wake up every day, and I just remind myself of how lucky I am.

But

racism

is real.

Racism

is there.

I may not think about it every minute of every day,

but it pops into my mind every day.

It's sort of like

a reoccurring injury,

sort of like

pain that won't go away.

It's just this thing that's nagging

in the back of my mind.

It affects how I make decisions.

It affects where I go,

what I do.

How I behave

and

it sucks.

Like I said, I've been fortunate.

I've done everything I've wanted to do in my life

and

I'm not gonna stop now,

but

people have to realize

that everybody is not as lucky as I am.

Everybody didn't come from where I came from. Everybody didn't have

the parents I had.

Everybody didn't have the circumstances

I had. And

maybe my life would have been different,

even with the great circumstances

I was given.

If I wasn't a black man in America.

It really does affect

me to the core.

And

really,

All I wanna say

is that

if you care,

if you care.

You don't care,

I don't care. If you don't care,

about racism. If you don't think racism is a thing,

I don't care about you. I don't care what you think. I don't care what you do.

Go on with your life

and good luck.

But

if you care

All I'm asking

is that you

reach down

inside of yourself

and ask

just this question.

What am I doing.

To make it better.

So, Alvin,

again, I told you when I called you, you know, it's incredibly brave to just put that video out there to begin with. So I wanna, you know, think you. Yeah.

What's going man You. Yeah. What's going on your head right now. Like, listening to that. I don't know if you've heard. Well, just listen. Because that's that's actually the first time I yeah listen

Well, I think I did listen to it once initially. And, you know, I I had make these videos

about clock fishing. I tried to do it weekly, and it's something that I sit down and I'm write...

You know, a script and I record it and go back and edit and re record and just, you know, kind of chop it up and hash it out.

I turned the camera on, and I had some notes I put the notes down, I didn't look at them, and that's what came out. I just

dumped into a computer and

put it out.

So that was the x I mean, that was about as raw

as it gets.

And, I mean, listening back now Like, oh, man. Be.

I really can't change anything. I mean, I guess if I was gonna do anything to clarify because, you know, I've I've had, like,

you know, a pretty amazing dialogue with a bunch of people,

overwhelmingly

supportive people. I mean, you know, there's always some haters out there, but like I said, You know, I'm don't I'm not worried about those those folks.

But one thing somebody did,

you know, comment about, you know, me saying, I don't care if you don't care,

which which is really true.

But at the same time, I do feel the need to

have some interaction, some discussion with Folks who maybe don't

feel a hundred percent on board, like, you know, I mean, if if you know, if you think the whole thing

idea of racism is something that's made up. Yeah. You know, we probably don't... We probably can't have a discussion. But, you know, the... If nothing's completely black and white, which I use that term. On purpose.

But nothing's completely... Nothing's completely black and white.

And so I... I'm totally, I think we totally need to be open to differing opinions and and on people's

a different

interpretations because as I was telling,

one of my buddies

when the guys at meet,

you know, it's, like, I don't know what it's like to be a white person in America, and

you know, you got a whole different perspective on a lot of this stuff. So, you know, this is just where I'm coming from, and

it's true. I mean, I've been lucky, but at the same time, I mean, you know, in any one of those

guys that, you know, have died at the hands of police brutality that that could've have been me, you know, because... Yeah.

You know?

I am black. I am in America, and it and it is a different experience than than most people will will have, you know?

But,

at the end of the day, I'm glad I did it.

And I'm really

been really happy with a overwhelmingly

positive response

and just getting the dialogue going

And in this world of flat fishing, you know, because in it's... It perm

our entire

society, but this is the world I live in, the world of flat mission, and I'm really

happy that that it is something that, has been embraced you know,

you know,

for the most part, in a positive manner. So... Yeah. You know, thanks for just doing this podcast. I mean, this is awesome. I mean, I am not the el

civil right speaker that That I that I wish I was, but, I mean, yeah. This is my my voice and the fact that you guys are interested in listening is it's pretty amazing. Stuff. I think you hit the nail in the head with what you said. I mean, it was from heart. It was passionate, and, you know, I think it was great. You know, it

Yeah. When

you know, I listened to it.

When I I'd listened to it and then

stop... You know,

after it was done, I I kinda... There was one line that stuck out to me when you said, you don't think about it every day. But it does pop in your mind every day.

Mh. That

for you... So that hit me personally because I in two thousand one, I, you know, as diagnosed diagnosed with cancer and went went through that, you know, the chemo, the whole thing and came out the other end okay. But

when

when you go through something like that,

that doesn't leave you. You know, That's, like, Yep. What you said there is exactly how I feel. At some point or during the day even if it's like a for a nano second,

that does coming in my mind.

Right? So I can kind of relate a little bit to what you're saying there.

You know, so that that kind of, like, grounded me What and.

It help me kind of, like, understand the perspective a little bit better.

You know, I'm hoping that... That's what I was was trying to do. I mean, because, you know, like I mean, I didn't even think about that, you know, being a cancer survivor. I, know, I thinking I have lots of friends who are in recovery for drugs and alcohol alcohol. And and, you know, they're like, you know, once them is attic always an attic. So, you know, that's a part of their day to day existence, you know, which... I mean, I mean, that's gotta suck, You know, to have that, you know, little thing back their, you know, always like... Hey, man. You know, this this could happen to you again. You know? So, yeah.

That's kinda what I was trying to do. And, you know, like I said, I a bunch of notes and some really el

quotes

was like, whatever.

Well, the.

I'm glad you're... I'm glad you're all good with the cancer thing. Yeah. Out man. I... Yeah. I, it... It's all good. Now. But

what I... So, like, I... So I started thinking about it more and more, and I'm like, okay. So I... And I'm trying to... Always trying to frame it within fly fishing because I intended it as soon as I saw your video. I'm like, I, we gotta get this guy and we gotta talk to him. And and so in the... You know, again, within the lane of of fly fishing,

I'm like, okay. So what's the... How... What's the diversity like in fly fishing? So I mean, I'm just using my sample size of of my my Instagram feed. Right?

I follow a ton of people in in our space, and there's

I can count

three

black guys on my feet

out of... Wow.

Thousands of people that I follow. There there's three. Yeah. It's. It's you. It's it's Chad Brown from Soul Soul River and then a guy out of reading Corey Corey Williams. Those are three. I don't know.

Corey had look him He he he used to work with the fly shop in redding a while back. He's a phenomenal fly faster. You set out. Okay. We're shopping and redding. So if I ask myself that question, is there is there diversity in in the sport? And also is there a racism in the sport, I can... One hundred percent say that there's no, there there is not diversity in the sport? Just based on... You know, my perspective and seeing what I'm seeing in my feet and just what's in media in general.

But what I wanna... Like, can you can you kinda, like share an experience you had without, you know, throwing anybody under the bus,

on just... Like, give... Just talk about an experience where you... That was, you know, a negative experience that

that we... Okay. Yeah. I wanna I I wanna Got a great one. Okay. Cool. I got a great one.

So I was a manager of of the flash shop, the opposite Angle.

And, you know, I was a pretty...

I mean, you know, I was doing all the buying at the shop, you know, a new alta the gear inside and out. You know, I've probably spent six weeks two months, just like, out fishing. You know, Like, I mean, I would take two months. I go to Chile,

Argentina,

police wherever, I mean, I was I was getting out. I was doing it.

So I'm staying at the counter on one day.

And we've got an old guy who used to do the books and work at the shop part time. You retired Irs guy. Old white guy. Named Bill.

There's nobody in the shop, except Bill and I... This guy walks in,

You know, I'm like, hey, how you doing? And he kinda looks at me, didn't really say thing, but then he looks and sees bill the old white guy in the back of the shop.

So he walks back to Bill and says, hey.

I'm going to Russia,

I need to get

some gear

and Bill looks up from his lunch

and says, you just walked by the man who's got the answers that you need. And I'm like, oh, crap. Here we go.

So the guy

just did not want to believe that I was gonna be able to help him. And,

you know,

it might have been because I was too short

but I'm pretty sure it's because I was a young black dude at the fly shop. I mean, I just got the feeling. You know? I mean? Yeah. So

I go and I I grabbed my my boss, Larry.

He's back in the office, and he's a middle aged white guy. Kinda like the guy that's standing in front of me. And,

Larry like, you, you know, I tell Larry kinda like hey, man. I think this guy out here doesn't want me to help him because

a young black dude.

I was like, I just kinda got that feeling and Larry he's like, what the hell?

So Larry comes it out, and we both stand

in front of this guy.

And

the guy just, like, starts asking Larry all the questions. You know, like, all the stuff that he needs to know and what kind of gear needs and everything.

And,

you know, I was like, I was like, oh, well, that was it. He he's was, like, middle white dude,

he can work with this guy. He can't work with me.

But Larry being the guy he is,

the guy would ask him a question,

and I'm standing, like, five feet away. Larry would turn

and asked me the exact same question.

Yeah. And then I would tell Larry to answer, and then, Larry would turn told the guy worked for work. What I had just said. You know, Sorry. I and And that went up for like ten minutes. I mean, it was like, whoa, this is real... This is really happening right now. You know My. And

you know, Larry like, screw that guy. You know I don't care how much money's spending. You know. But

On the flip side,

that guy came back in.

I mean, we kinda...

It wasn't nice. What we did to. Because, I mean, we were, like,

the little act that we were doing

kinda humiliated the guy.

Because it was obvious that the reason we know we were in this situation because he didn't like the way I looked.

But about two weeks later,

that guy came back in,

and I saw him hit the front door and I saw him look around

and he walked straight up to me, and, you know,

if from then on, I was the guy that was gonna help him. You know? So I was like, alright. That works. You know, But... I mean, just in in whatever small way.

You know, Yeah. We changed that guy's mind about, you know, whatever his issue he had with me. So

that was a bad experience that kinda turned into positive experience.

Be lucky for me,

like I said, the the way I was raised my parents, my whole circumstance. Like, I didn't take it personally. It didn't hurt my feelings at all, and it was sort like this poor idiot.

Has a problem, and hopefully he can get over it. Yeah. I think maybe he did, but he obviously changed his behavior. And I mean,

you know, at the end of the day,

You know, like I said... It it doesn't affect me at all. I'm lucky, but, you know, it it could've have been some other young black kid in some other

situation where it would would not have turned out that way. And that's the thing that

got me all amped up about this in the first place. You know, it's like,

benny ain't. Right?

You know. And like I said, I'm just lucky that I've been able to put myself in a situation where I can deal with it. But, you know, that that kind of stuff happens. And there's other, like,

small issues here and there, but

I think

when people would book a trip, you know, guided a trip with the shop and then I would show up. There were few people were kinda like,

a,

how long have you been fly fishing. It like, long at time. Dude. Don't worry about it.

Yeah,

you,

well can you... I think the the fly fishing world for the most part is the people that are in the industry for the most part have always been really good to me and, I really,

I really appreciate appreciate that, you know.

Yeah. Maybe not the clientele always, but, you know, people are in the industry of or for the most part, pretty good pretty good folks. Well why I was gonna make one my quest.

Yeah. Yeah.

Try had check. Well, my... Well, my... I'm getting reverb, or are you guys? Are you good? Yeah.

Little bad? It went away.

No. I'm good. I think I don't hear any. Okay. Cool.

Well, you know, what I what I said earlier about, you know, I've got I got three black guys on my feet. Right? And that's it. And I don't... You know, my my observation is there's not any diversity in sport, but, I mean, Alvin, what... How do you feel about it? You you know way More people. I've doing this

three and a half years and you've been doing it your whole life. What do you think?

I'm gonna agree with you. There's not a lot of diversity out there. You know,

both in color and insects, You know, my wife. Yeah.

Of,

there's maybe

three or four

fly fishing guides in

Texas that I know of that are women, you know, that, you know, definitely less than a dozen.

And

Yeah. As far as I know,

I'm the only black fly fishing guide in Texas So, I mean,

So, yeah. The the... It it is it is... There is not a lot of diversity in the sport. And

now I'm not really

sure

why that is. I mean, you know, lots of black people and people of other colors, fish, lots of women fish,

you know, fly fishing, maybe it's the whole

idea that it's an elitist sport or you gotta have a lot of money or or something,

but, yeah. It's it's not the most diverse

the sport out there for sure. It's getting better. It's definitely getting better. But It seems to be hit. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Just this this this conversation we're having right now. I mean, that's that's part of it. It's gonna get better. I mean, chi in just on the... It's getting better piece. It absolutely is. But I do think...

I'm right there with you, Alvin, like, the industry

is

a very welcoming place for the most part.

But I think that the clientele tell

is more stuck in that elitist

white man

world

that it can't... It will put people off. I've had the same exact experience

with one of my

young

they're always, like, way taller than I am

employees,

Male employees at a... At one of the customer facing shows will be standing next to each other.

And

every single customer will walk. Straight up to them, look them in the eye. Say, I love your company. I love everything that you're doing. Really, really nice thing.

U. And then they will turn to me, and they say, I think you wanna tell her that.

And they look at me like, why would I do that?

So Yeah. It's... Liz lady. Yeah. So stereotypes

are just so all pervasive that people make these assumptions,

and I've been

talking to to people

about that. There's on the women's side because that's where I can speak from that is way easier

than

speaking from

any person of colors perspective,

but

I just say assume this person loves fishing as much as you do

and start from there.

If you're in a fly shop. If you're at a customer facing show, assume that whoever it is you're talking to loves fishing as much as you do and already, there's your common ground. And then that's where you can kinda go from there. People will walk up to my husband and go. Oh, man. When did you last fish

and he'll be like, oh, well, we just went to Chile. Blah, blah. My wife actually caught the most... People brown. I've ever seen. And they look at me cross. Like, really you can do that.

Oh, man. I... My wife can tell you story after story of being at the boat ramp launching her boat. Yeah. Just they know how out. Does even know how to drive a boat. I mean.

Yeah. Looks like the.

Yeah.

Need to flip

to,

We are all in this together as opposed to, I know exactly what a fly fisherman

looks like. Well yep. Yeah. That that story that Alvin shared with us just a minute ago,

when we did our sexual sexual specialization of fly fishing episode.

One of the girl... One of the girls. They're both guides. And one of the guides

kinda shared a very similar to story with that you just shared Ko. It's, like, almost identical, but, you know, the guy gets on the boat and he's, like, where's is my guide, and there's this, you know, hundred and twenty pound girl on the on the sticks, and she's like, let's go and he's like.

So...

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, my my wife had a guy actually say, oh.

I thought you were gonna be in a bikini.

Geez. Oh, jeez.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm like like, really, and you still took bishop because I not have been been. I don't know if I'd have been able, but

even take those guys fishing. But... Yeah. Yeah just it's real.

Yeah. And then... Some of the... Go ahead, Chad. No. You go ahead.

I was just gonna say, I've I've been reading a lot of comments from people. You know that

whether they're women or men that they're just afraid because maybe they are,

they do, you know,

have, you know, they're skin is, they're in color or whatever they're afraid to go take pictures in the wild or go down the road and go fishing by themselves because they're afraid

something's gonna happen to him, and it and it... To me, I when I read that stuff. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, that's that's how people feel. You know, kinda like what you were saying earlier,

Alvin about just being afraid to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in your message. You know? And and it's just something that I just don't... I never think about. You know? Like, I don't... I get into my little world, you know? And I'm... Yeah. And we're we're all brothers and sisters. That's the way I've lived in my whole life. You know? I've never I've been surrounded by people that are racist and all that stuff, but

I've never had it affect me or the people around me. But but you... I just forget about it. And like, you're talking about having this discussion, you know, talking... I I always think, like, a people that with depression. You know, that wanna commit to us And I'm like, man, There's... No. You gotta come with me. We're gonna go fly fishing on the Smith River, and you're... I'm gonna take my passion and give it to you. And hopefully cure that depression. You know, I don't... In a way. Like, you can't injure like this early. Like, we have to... We have to go experience these places there just so amazing.

You know And I I fly fishing is a is a place for that. At least have throttle is in the calendar before you do.

Right. Bad. Right. Well, that was one of the things Lin know, like, a the that, you know, you mentioned some Chad Brown. I've been reading some of his stuff, you know, And that's how he's dealt with Ptsd. You know I mean, know, fly fishing. He's basically saved his life, you know, and

you know, if he if he didn't have that, you know, who who knows where he would... He right now And and it it it is,

I'm like, everybody should

have that opportunity. Whether it's fishing or, you know, like, he said just going out and being in nature.

You know, and

I...

It's funny because, you know, a lot of my long

term friends have have reached out to me since all this has been happening. And one of my really good buddies

the musician.

He's up in Seattle. He used to live in Austin and and we spent a lot of time in the back country together and a lot of time. It just, you know, driving around the country. And

he

said that he was actually

scared

many times when we were together in, you know, some situations that he thought might have been kinda sketchy

because I was black. And he was like, I was just always amazed that she just, like, stroll right on through and didn't let it, you know, slow you down, and I was like, dude that. I don't really have a choice. You because. I wanna do those things. And you know,

I mean,

you know, who knows? Maybe we were putting ourselves at risk but, you know, at the same time,

you know, life's gotta go on.

But,

you know,

like, I keep saying, like, everybody doesn't have that

you know, ability to, you know, just put call to the wind and just go for it, and I just I just wish that they didn't have to. You know, but, you know, like you said, they could just go out and do those things without having to think about am my I safe here. Yeah. Alvin, can you can you kinda, like, talk about a a specific example so that people that that aren't black that take that that situation for for granted

kind of get well

it. You know what I mean? Like, I I want people like, understand that a little bit little bit deeper. I I got it, but I wanna make sure, like, just dig in a little more there.

You know, it it's weird. It's so like, I mean, my wife who's not black.

She notices a a lot more than I do. Know So like, we'll go into

a restaurant

in some,

know, small town somewhere,

and,

you know, it's kinda like the the stereotypical

thing where, you know, like, the the music is playing, and then we walk in and, like, the radio

coming mean, the the the the record scratches and, like, you know, everything goes style it, and you can hear a pin drop kind of thing.

And

I mean, that happens. I mean, that that still happens.

In all. I I get... Happened not austin. Okay. Yeah. No. Not austin. Not austin.

But

and that's part of the reason why we live in Austin and we don't live somewhere else.

You know, that that that's happened over and over again. I mean, I've been, you know, with this with this buddy of mine, and, you know, we go into some little

bar grilled and lick gill it Wyoming or wherever, and, you know, it's like everybody...

Everybody's

staring at us when walk in and,

you know, and I'm like, well, they're they're staring at us because you got long hair. You know, and not staring at because I might only like to the threat like they've ever seen in person.

But... Yeah. It just... You know,

I, I mean, and

I guess I'm an idiot. I'm I'm, like, at, whatever. You know, Like, I mean, that's that's their problem. They never seen a black with dread locks in this bar, but

I'm here.

Hopefully, they're not gonna kill me.

But, you know, it's just

I shouldn't have to think that. And I usually just block those thoughts out of my mind, but that is, you know, I mean, my wife

definitely notices it, you know, we go somewhere, like, wow, okay. Well, I guess I've never seen, anybody it looks like us before.

I mean,

I... Most people know, like, if somebody walks in and they got

a missing limb or some kind of dis figure,

most people know that's not polite to stare.

But I think it's still okay to stare. Like? Ain't never seen a black dude in this place before. It's okay to stare.

So that... Yeah. That's that's a little little unnerving at times, but

it happens

so often

that it... I can't even say, like, oh, there was that one time, You know? It's just... Yeah. That's just kinda part of the day to day existence. You know, I guess if I wasn't, if I didn't have dread locks and, you know, maybe made myself look a little bit more conservative or something it might not be as much of an issue, but Out of I know about to do that either. Yes.

I know. I know. I don't I don't know Saying it. Like, I shouldn't have to do that either. So.

You can you can kinda think some average white kid that dresses is super alternative.

He's got tattoos all over his arms whatever walks into a bar. In Wyoming. Where that's not like, overly common. People would look at them, go, oh, that's not my taste and look away. Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference. I think it's that people think it's okay to just, like you're saying.

Stare in Oval,

not not even realize that that's

rude that it is Yeah. Racism.

Yeah. Point blank. And

I think that that's the point of, you know, what your friend said that

he was noticing it that your wife notices it, and then you say, well,

I can just brush it off,

but you noticed it every time. It's just that you have had to train yourself to brush it off and and that's what

the average white person just cannot

understand that you have to train yourself to react differently in different situations. Yeah. I. Oh god.

Because I'm married I'm married to a mid thirties white man and he

never

ever thinks about

how he's directing how he's entering a room where he's going, Never. Right. Mh. Mh.

And you have know

No go fix it. But you... That's the kind of stuff that you you kinda do this mental check down list. Just kinda in the back of your mind always.

Yeah. Yeah. Usually usually you know, oh,

situational awareness is a part of my existence.

Yeah. And the that's a term, that term that you just use The situational awareness is is a combat term. Right? And and... Yeah. Yeah. And

that... That's an interesting term to use because I kinda feel like that's almost what it's like, It must be. A little bit. Like, you're going... You're almost going to war sort of.

And you know, it's if we're gonna try that to it's, you know,

try to get too heavy

in this stuff, you know, because... A Yeah. I... Yeah. I I I guess. Like I said, I'm trying to have... I'm trying to just have, like, a, you know, a great life. I am having a great life. Yeah.

And that's just part of it kinda like the background noise, in the video or something about

recurring

injury or or yeah, like, what they call them You have, like, a pain, you know, Chronic. Chronic pain chronic. Chronic pain. Yeah. Chronic pain. Yeah. You, it's... It's, like... It's always the But eventually, you kinda get to worry like, now. Okay. I... I'm not gonna pay attention to that anymore.

And, you know, Chad, I know you wanted to, like, think about it on a fly phishing scale, but, I mean, it

similar for women. I'm in a lot of women's groups and they Yeah. Say, like,

I don't want to fish alone because I don't feel safe. I don't want to encounter someone that I don't know or whatever.

I'm in that group. I only go fishing to places that I know, like, the back of my hand by myself. But I have a friend who has been called the n word on the river, like, Word, what are you doing home here. Like no no.

Yet. Wow. That yet Hint. Yeah. That is

intense he is a fishy dude. Like, it's not like he's over there making a fool of himself. He is...

And people are going

not that that even matters. You know, but he's just sticking to his own thing, doing his own thing and

that's

his experience, and not w. That has nothing to do with

You know, Yeah. Yeah. Being in a bar or somewhere or something.

When it doesn't matter where you are, it's never okay. That's that's true. I mean and but the thing is this is weird. Was like, I... My wife

will go fishing

by herself. And I... It just worries the crap out of me. I'm was just like, really, you know, but I don't want her to have to limit her

existence

because of that. Right. And, you know, but I know she worries about me when I'm out there, solo low, You know, because I I go out by myself a lot. You know, you to, like, that was like kind of my thing was solo low trips. I'd go off or, you know,

weeks on end,

you know, efficient solo, back country stuff, you know, driving from place to place and, you know,

that that just sucks to have to have that, you know,

I mean, I guess, there's crazy people out there that we'll prey on anybody regardless of their sex or their race. But, you know, that's, you know, it's like, you're more likely to get maul by bear than than than,

you know, just encounter some random psycho path in the woods. Right. Right. And you're not very likely to get maul by bears. So... But, you know, just

the day to day thing, you know, is just... But I mean, humans should have better self control. And education than bears.

That's true.

No true statement has ever been made.

They should.

That's how I have a question.

How do how do we make

equality and empathy as contagious as Covid.

Gotta convince people somehow or another that it's gonna

benefit them. I mean, really...

Because because I believe that it does. I believe that,

you know, empathy,

the quality,

race and sex, you know, it it is just gonna

you're gonna win, it you're that person. You know, I really do think that it it it's... I mean, that's how I have chosen to live my life, and I think that that is why I'm winning, you know, because I'm, you know, and and And I'm always trying to learn. I'm always trying to be more empathetic and, you know, you know, just just being married, and that's a that's a... You know, you know. And

so.

It's a daily opportunity to learn.

But man right there. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's just... But I I don't know. I mean, that's the thing. And I guess That was why I asked that question because I asked myself the question. I don't know. I don't have the answer. I really don't know how

to make this situation better

other than

everybody

asking

themselves,

what can I do? Because I don't know what you guys can do. I'm, I'm not a white guy. I'm not a woman, You know, I I I don't know what it's gonna take

to make this all

better,

all I

all I know how to do is what I'm capable of and

just starting the conversation, I guess was was it for me.

So I think, you know, you just gotta figure it out on your own. I kinda I wanna feel like feel I kinda feel like it has to start in your own backyard, you know, and and

I've lived all over California,

and California's are a very diverse

state, but it's also... You know, I'm in Butte County right now, which is predominantly white. So my point being that your social circles kind of define

I think you're you know,

the the your geography

often defines

how diverse the, you know, the the racial makeup up your circle social circles are. Mh. I've been fortunate enough to bounce around California a lot, and therefore I have a lot of different friends. And have republican friends have democrat friends and everything in between.

So I guess, to answer your question, Nick, and because there's no magic wand, but I think it's gotta start out in your backyard and, like, look at your immediate social circle and if it's predominantly white or not diverse,

maybe think about calling up somebody or hitting somebody up on on Instagram to go fish with that's that's that's not that's not white. You know? And and and, like, get

exposure to other races other than your own.

And that... Those positive experiences will stack up and maybe

flip the the the script a bit on what your perceptions are of race.

I don't know. That's... Man. I'm trying to form... I'm trying to find more black people to go fishing with myself.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Core corey is gonna get head up. Man he's gonna have all kinds of. The sea of way pace going to to fish. Yeah.

But, I mean, it's awesome. It it doesn't necessarily to be fish and either just, like, dinner or whatever. But my my point is just to kinda, you know, mix it up a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking about that a lot lately. And just just having the conversation with you guys. I'm thinking about this gal that she's, like, seven... She's, like, seventy one.

She's awesome, and she hires me to take her fishing every once in a while.

And she's told me many times how she's scared to go certain places, you know, to by herself. And, like, one of the things that I think I'm gonna do. I'm I'm gonna call her up and to... And let's say, hey, let's go... We're gonna go in the, like, fun as friend. You know, and just go waiting with her somewhere.

You know, and that's where it starts. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Star small starts local. I mean Yep. You know, everybody's got the,

you know,

everybody's got a chance to do something, you know?

Yeah. I... Know And like you were saying, like, the people that used surround yourself with. I mean, I think that's a big part of it too. Even if mh. You don't find a woman or a person of color,

maybe

just cut somebody out that, you know, like, this person's not, doing it the right way or, you know, seek out people who are, you know, trying to do

positive things and, you know, get close to them. They they say that

what is it? You're

in financial terms, your network is your network worth, and I think Yeah. Know. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, the the network, you find the network of people who are,

doing

the kind of things that that you wanna do, you know? I mean, because you

you may not have

somebody

to reach out to, but there's probably somebody that you know that is doing the type of things that you wanna do. And just get closer to them and, you know, experience

life through Yeah. You know, their point of view.

Well... Yeah. Because it's been held he live in the middle of, you know,

I can't think of a better name. You live in the middle of White America. You you might not be able to find too many black folks to go fishing with. And right now that that that black person probably getting bombarded by people who are wanting to go fishing with...

So yeah. Yeah. We...

That's what good point. Well, there... So we we we talked a bit about, you know, what what the individual can do, but there's also, you know, one of the reasons that I that I wanted to have Current on is because

I think Rep your water did this post that they made on Instagram. I think it was the same day as as your post album,

I think

is something that as a brand, you know, as someone that has a brand,

ourselves,

me and Nick.

This was

this was, like,

one of the best posts I've seen by from any brand, and I think the... A brand's responsibility in during this time because of the platforms that they command, and I'm talking about the t and the the Yeti

and, and folks like

at rep water.

They have

an opportunity to, you know, to to

do something positive as well in this space.

Cor, can you kind of

Do you mind reading what you... What you posted

to the other... It was on you know, what's it's that June third post? Yeah. Can you just Yeah.

Yeah. And and give the background yeah really.

Super powerful from Branch perspective. I just wanna... Yeah. Yeah. We posted

we posted the classic black square,

mostly because as individuals.

We believe in equity and a quality, which are not the same thing.

And

we have a platform.

And, yes, it's about fishing, but it's humans who fish, and so that's what matters.

Then...

And I knew that we were gonna get some backlash just because

we are dealing with humans here. And I knew we were gonna lose some followers and

So we were prepared for that,

we weren't prepared that we were gonna make a statement about it,

but

there was so much hate going on,

although, like Alvin mentioned on his post, there was so much

support going on that we kinda of felt like we needed to

gather the people together and understand a little bit more from our perspective. So

without further ado.

And it's just a note from my phone. So it says from c cofounder garrison an current doctor. We don't have the time to respond to each of the comments on our post yesterday, negative or positive. However, thank you to those who stand in solidarity

against racism.

To those who think that a Black square isn't enough, you are right, and we hope that everyone will join us in working on the next steps, educating ourselves, donating, speaking with family and friends.

To those who do not think there is a problem, we disagree and we'll leave it at that for now. Except to ask that please research using incredible sources.

We believe the outdoor world should be inclusive and that it doesn't feel that way to everyone. So we need to work towards change in the entire country and our industry.

We lost about five hundred followers yesterday

and of people who disagree disagreed with us. In response, we donated five hundred dollars to the end of Legal defense and education fund. If you have the means, we encourage you to do the same or find an organization in your area that is helping to be part of the solution.

We will continue to educate ourselves as individuals as a company and to move towards change.

Thank you to those who have always and continue to support us.

Yeah. And and thank you.

Thank you for post. Gonna just tell you. I read... I... We we started talking about doing this podcast, and I read that post, and I was like, hell. Yeah. I'm in. Yeah.

Yeah. So what was what was interesting? You know, I I kind of watch those comments and on that thread and then the the one on Yeti

really closely, and, you know, there were basically two camps. Oh, you guys are pan that are...

And then the other camp was the folks that you... I think that you were... You you alluded to earlier, Corinne,

that jumped on and and kinda defended

not only you guys, but also

what the the the message the, you know, the core messages and that, you know, and and kind of like,

did the the fighting for you almost in the in the comments, all your followers that were that got it and are on board.

And Yeah. I couldn't get in there and and No. Go head to head with these people And there's no point. It's like what Alvin said, if you don't believe there's a problem or if you don't wanna change, then I don't care. Yeah. And that's where I am. If you can't look from within,

then we don't have any place to start. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, it... It's encouraging to see what the Nfl did finally.

Yeah. Yeah. It's encouraging to see what Nascar did finally.

Unbelievable with the Nascar thing. I was like nobody when saw that coming. That old nascar.

Come all. Okay yeah. I was pretty pretty wild. Alright. You know, so I think...

I think things have hit a tipping point, hopefully, you know, and and we just gotta keep pushing. I sure hope so. I'm not sure hope so. I mean, you know,

I'm

pretty positive

most of the time.

But I'm

sort of, like,

at this point, I wanna be like the the pe who's is gonna be really happy

when he's wrong with his pessimism.

You know. Yeah. One of my friends told me once. I was like, why are you always so negative about stuff. And he's like, I'm always

thinking the worst is gonna happen so I can be really excited

when the best happens

exactly that. Okay. Got set

expectations low or have very cautionary

optimism.

Mh Mh mh. Yeah. So I'm I'm trying to be cautioned to cautiously

optimistic. I mean, that's where I right now. I I want to be that that person that's cautiously optimistic.

I mean, just... I mean, you gotta

just this

conversation we're having right now. Making me feel better about everything. Cool.

Yeah. And this is, you know, what you were saying if I gonna go Chad that or now, of course, I can't tell your voice apart. I'm sorry.

Sleep. Yeah.

Oh, but

that a lot of people were trying to say, like, you're just pan, and you're just doing this out and the other. And I think... I mean, I can only speak for us because we're not yeti.

This was literally

me and Garrison sitting down and writing this on my phone,

and it was just, like you were saying Alvin, it was raw. Was how we're feeling and we're like, we're posting this. Right? Now. Like, I can't

sit there and do anything else. We don't have a P firm. This is just us. Yeah. Speaking about people.

The point of the a post like that is not to sell things. The point of a post like that is to stand up for what you believe in. Yeah. And so for all the people that are saying you're pan and you're you're just on the bandwagon writing. It's like, no?

No. Like, you don't know me. I was an educator for six years.

Like, I was in public education. You don't know anything about what I've seen what I've studied who I've talked to. So

that's the

that's the crazy thing about it. Is I think it's easy for people to think, oh, we have a big following and so it's this big P stunt.

Yeah.

Because I think that is the case for some

brands. They were like, oh, we better get in or, yeah. Yeah. We don't will be. That'll be the the guys who were left out of that. I guarantee.

I can guarantee you that there were some brands that there was a room with P people

brand managers,

c level execs having a discussion on what whether or not they're gonna do it, a, and if they are gonna do it what they're gonna say, and it probably took most of the day.

I think

I would honestly rather them

still post something, though even if at the time. Absolutely. They're thinking,

well, we better get on this bandwagon

because it... We that's one step. I don't care just the fact that. It's the just the fact that they thought that it was, like, oh, we we can't get left behind on this one. I mean, that... Exactly. Just just that that is a thought. Is... Yes. Yeah. That's good. And that's why I said earlier, that... This is why I think we're at a tipping point because I don't I don't remember any other time in my lifetime or this has kind of happened with this this level of of kind of, like buy. You know what and... You, you know what I mean, just it it just seems to be perm the culture finally.

Well,

interesting thing about that too is, you know,

Or repo the video that I put out and

once again, overwhelming

positive

comments, but, you know,

you know, still quite be negative comments, but, like,

everybody jumped on the negative comment or something. Like, Or

posted it. They didn't reply to any comment.

I jumped in, and I normally do not

jump into that stuff, but I jumped in and made a few comments because I was like, oh, man. That's that's ridiculous, You know. But but

once again, it doesn't hurt my feelings at all. So I just jump in you know, from a rational like, no. You you gotta at least have your fax break point. But

I heard back

from, you know, some of the or

top brass

that

you know, they lost a lot of followers,

but they gained

Mh.

Way more than they lost. Yeah. You know. And

not that that was the intention of the post was to pick up more followers, but it's just like a positive

reinforcement of doing the right thing being on the right side of history. Because I think that's what it is at this point. It's like, Yeah. You know. You wanna be on the right side of history, you you, you know, you don't wanna be

the guys that were... That got it all wrong. I mean, even as a... Just as the business, you know, you wanna be on the right side of history. So

It's okay If they had a boardroom room meeting and decided we need to post this, you know, or whatever

selfish reason,

I'm okay with that.

Yeah.

Force them to do the right thing as long as they do the right thing. And that's

right.

And more right things will follow. That's what I like to think. Yeah.

Just gets easier and easier really? Yeah. I mean,

at the time that we posted, it was we lost five hundred followers,

and, I mean, we're

way back to

before,

Yeah. You know. It's it's the same thing. We got a lot of positive

comments back from people saying. Oh, wow. I had never even heard of you, but my friend told me about your post and here I am. I love fishing too. So it's like,

I'll you all of these people that are going, oh wait. Here's this common ground. Now we have two things in common we're anti racism,

and we like fishing. So Yeah. Here we go. And off races because you gotta find something

to start with. That's how we deal.

We we a vision. We have a group of guys who look... Here locally that started a,

a nonprofit called Cast Pope. If you guys started that? Cash I have. We we donate some prizes every year. I have not. So, great organization and their their job. They they get kids, you know, that are in trouble or some... And some that are not, and they get them out on the water and get them fishing. That's their their main goal.

It's... I think it's one of the most powerful,

just awesome

things that can... I feel like it should just spread, like, wire... Wildfire across our nation. You know, there's only a couple of places that set up

amongst California, but

yeah. I I think that it's a it's a great start. I just keep thinking about ways, You know, things to do get involved with local,

fly clubs

you know, whatever whatever it is, I keep thinking about it. But if you guys haven't heard of it or

check it out, they they do a great job just as, you know, getting kids out fishing and educating them, and it's... That's wanna

one of my favorite stories from that they tell... They they they tell at a lot because it's a good one.

They they took these these city kids out to for coastal cut throat on, in California.

And there... I think they were on the beach or they were they were in a coastal campground somewhere.

And one of the kid... There's this kid sitting by himself on, like, the Sand doing or something. He's just kinda, like, looking up at the sky, the stars.

And one of the counselors or one of the one of the volunteers asked him what he's... You know, what are you doing out here by yourself? And he's just just looking at the stars. I've never seen the stars. Because this kid has been in the city his whole life with all the light pollution. And this is literally the first time he's seen this, you know, the cosmos, basically.

And it was It was pretty nuts to hear that, You know? That's a transformative

ex experience.

So so so that guy

Larry Sun.

Is the guy who owned the austin Angle

when I work there. Like, asked me to work there. I mean, like, I didn't... I was

I was a musician. I was doing all this kind of stuff. I was kind of at a crossroads in my life. He and I was like, I'm not sure What Gonna do. He's, like, well, you should work as a as a flash shop. He's like, as long as you keep your toenails painted pink. But this this guy this guy

had worked as a as a as a counselor in a, you know,

program

for at risk youth, and they would take them out on these canoe trips, camping trips, all this kind of stuff. He told me about once being out with a group of girls,

and they're doing a ka canoe trip down the river

and one of the girls asked him,

chief Larry,

this river

said to him, Chief Larry... This river is beautiful.

And the next question was

who made this river?

Because she had never seen

you know, a water way that wasn't a man made thing. She grew up in a city, all the waterways were paid concrete bayou and stuff like that. And she was just like couldn't believe that this was just something that was just there all on its own. You know. So

it is. This is an amazing thing that to take kids and and put them out there, you know, for the first time and and just experience that. I mean,

I don't know where I would be

as a person,

if it wasn't for

those experiences that I had

as a kid, You know, Like, I was like,

I once again, I was fortunate my dad, my grandparents, you know, they just

always took us out and and did stuff like that,

and that's what I I am. The first I am now, but really, I think so many kids

could benefit so greatly by just being out there just by just being out there, whether they're fishing they're sitting in a boat. They're just walking around in the woods. I I think there's something we really gotta...

We really gotta

we

gotta promote it. We gotta get gotta get kids out there, get people out there to do it.

Yeah. Cast

great organization. You guys check it out. It's cast hope dot org. Dot org.

Writing it down. Cool. I think they're looking to expand too if you're interested in being a regional

regional, what do they call them? But I forget. Forget.

Regional ambassador. Yeah. I don't know. So Like that.

Austin could probably them as a location now.

I most some people around here that

can help out. I... I'm looking at the website now. Cool. I'm clicking on the get involved link.

Alan is get involved. Okay,

man. I'm trying.

Will that extra

fifteen minutes a month that I haven't in I was my light.

Do dude especially now, you're gonna be booked out till, like, twenty twenty eight with with white guys want the fish with you.

I still haven't been able to reply to all the comments. Like you said, on the

Instagram or... I mean, you know, is

Instagram and and Youtube, both has been, like,

way

way

the most popular

videos I've put out by a long margin. You know? I'm like, well, Got it. What what why does it have to be on this subject. Why can't we just talk about leaders or something?

It it should be my video on software everyone? Yeah. Yeah I know. I know.

I'm glad you Well that's the thing. I was gonna I was gonna make a post that day

about

leaders.

Oh god. But, yeah. I was gonna I was gonna make a video about leaders, but my buddy huge flat fisherman the same day that Monday morning had posted a video about leaders. And I was like, a,

My wife's second. Yeah. You gotta go ahead and do that video about racism.

Was like, oh god. Your your pivot subject.

Yeah. Yeah. I exactly I yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Leaders races Well, I'm glad I'm glad you did do it because we probably wouldn't have done the show if you hadn't, you know

That's true. No, you know, Sometimes you gotta to do what you gotta do as they say hey. Alan, if you haven't

seen it yet or I'm I'm not not to take away from what you've been talking about or the Chad developed a

some software or website that builds leaders builds what we call Rigged.

No way. Really? Yeah. I'll send. I'll send you a link to it dude.

Yeah. Then immediately you got taken it out. You can get on there and name your own leader if you've got, like, a bath that you use or red leader, you could get on there and and name it yourself and people can comment on it and it's got not. It's pretty cool with a modular system that you can build that structure these these lyric systems from in it. Instead of drawing that scratch paper, you know, design out Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. It's good. Yeah. No. No. I I wouldn't I wasn't gonna get that involved.

Yeah. Maybe I will that's pretty. It's pretty nerdy. And most fly fishermen men are pretty nerdy, so, you know,

They are. That's true. Yeah.

If you can hunch over a vice for four hours straight, I think you can build a leader in five minutes.

But, anyway, so I kinda feel like we're getting towards the end of this. What do you guys think?

Yeah.

Yeah. Is there anything good? We need to cover. Got before we we Thought it was great. Yeah. It starts to the converse station, and, you know, that's what we're doing and and I think a lot of people are gonna listen and and hear whatever people are saying and and act upon it, You know, and and we're all gonna do a better job in this world. I I truly do believe it.

I yeah.

Yeah. I I... I, you know like I said. I'm always cautiously

optimistic

little bit of pessimism there in the back so that I can be excited when when I'm wrong about my pessimistic.

Side.

Yeah. Now, I think this is great. I mean.

You know, my wife told me because that, you know, obviously been getting a lot of

offers and

opportunities to talk about this, and, you know, he's like, you know what? Dude, I know you do. But you you have to. Yeah. And but every time every time we do, it it's it's like, oh, this is so pleasant. This is like, really nice. This is yeah. This is good. People are good.

People wanna make things better and and so us. So,

yeah, thank you for making this happen. Yeah. Thank you. And and please keep getting getting that that message out though, and and I know it's gonna take some some of your time, but I I kinda feel like

there's some responsibility there for you is, like, you know, you're you're one of one of few

black guys in this history industry. And Yeah. I... You're you're breaking ground. Right? So

you leverage those platforms if they're available to you go for it and and get that message out. It's possible. So what I'm doing. I got I'm I I got... I got it... I'm working on the email to one of my friends who is the one of the

founders of the

austin city limits music festival by the

artist management P r person and he's like, hey.

You need me to help you.

You, I was like, oh, god.

I guess I do.

Yeah So so I mean, actually have an agent here. Yeah. Between him and your wife, they're gonna keep you on track.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean It's well,

give her. I mean, get hurt of. Out there. Thank you. Talk about. Yeah. Out a one way. And thank you for coming Guy open all him.

And Corinne, Thank you. Thank you for taking a leadership our brands.

Showing the way.

Appreciate it. Yeah. I mean, it's a tiny step, but

we gotta do it.

Baby step. That's right.

Nick I can't pull kids nailed down.

Yeah.

No we're good for all Well, again. Once you guys plug your plug your businesses real quick

for our listeners again.

Now.

Okay. So, yeah. You can you can find me at all water guides. All water guides dot com, all water guides everywhere, or you can just look up alvin

d,

a l v I n d e d e a u x dot com, or I think if you just

type in Google alvin and fly fishing. You will find me. So they're a fam. Or you'll get a lot of flies.

There's an alvin right? Isn't there an alvin fly?

No?

Yeah. Yeah. The ab bait. It's a straight pattern. Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway.

Bad joke. That was a weird joke. Sorry.

I do that. I... I'm always good for one just awkward moment? Usually caused by me.

Oh. Almost so good.

Karen, did we do we talk about,

wrap your water yet? Where to find? You did earlier, but, yeah, you can find us at re water dot com all one water... All one water. All one work.

It work do that all water. Yeah. Work all waters.

God. Good

that com. Yeah. On the Instagram and

we also did just launch a very casual podcast called fishing stories.

I'll plug that too, and it is just that. It is just

fishing stories from around the world. No. Rep Yep.

On on itunes and and well, I gotta get... We we gotta you gotta go fishing with you guys. I would just new day. If you guys find yourself. Be out Next Northern California.

Northern California,

You you got a a a free ride on our our... One of our jet boats and go chase some thirty, fifty pounds strip.

Time. My, my wife

has a client who

went to her went to Argentina with her earlier this year before everything got crazy. And they booked several days with Chuck Reagan.

And, of course, they had to cancel that. But they're they're talking about getting back up there to fish with him whenever it it's...

You know, it it can happen. So,

I'm sure they would like to add a few more days efficient. So we'll they will... I will keep in touch. Yeah. Man, and I wanna come out there and fish with you, Alvin bad. I'd love Austin. Anytime. Any excuse on. Let me know.

Let me know. Yeah. We can sweet. Eat barbecue and catch bath. That sounds awful. Go to the coast and catch But. Don't have to barbecue the bath, like, in involved no bad bad.

You don't have people but we can. But it's doable.

Cool Yep. Yeah. Well, I look forward to seeing you guys on the water and not on a on a phone call because none that is a booth fun. Yeah. We've we've met it we've met it a booth before In. I think

Yeah. I think I was gonna change that make it on the water. Alright. I thinking in Denver. Cool Yeah. Cool.

Alright. I would make sense for here. So... Well, I wanna I wanna thank Fish bio for for

supporting this shell and giving us the roof over the heads to to bring this podcast to you guys. And, of course, cal without you guys, or without cal, You guys wouldn't be able to hear this show today. So please go support them at cal dot org and,

fish bio dot com. Thank you guys.

We'll have another one next week.

Peace.

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